bundy:
After reading this paragraph I am much dumber, thanks.....
To those considering an OW class...
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After reading this paragraph I am much dumber, thanks.....
Seems if you are an instructor, you'd better keep professional liability insurance until you or the student dies....as they will come back and file suit ( if something goes wrong) saying that you did not train them adequately. All an enterprising Lawyer will need to do is read the feedback here, get some of the "back in the day folks" to testify and they will have their case won.!!!
Before the "oldtimers" get their speedos in a knot, lets look at the accidents and the number of divers that really get hurt/die each year. If the training were REALLY all that woeful, would not the number be higher and would not the Dan reports read, "due to inadequate training....."
Could the training be better?, yep... could we use it to be even more "exclusive"?, yep
Could we do a better job?, Yep...but before we sink under the weight of this argument, again most "Sport Divers" go to warm waters once or twice a year and follow a dive master around at less than 60' for 40-60 minutes for 3-9 tank dives and then head home...each dive a little more than you'd get in a resort course dive or a discover scuba dive, but not at the outer limit of their capacity....
Before the "oldtimers" get their speedos in a knot, lets look at the accidents and the number of divers that really get hurt/die each year. If the training were REALLY all that woeful, would not the number be higher and would not the Dan reports read, "due to inadequate training....."
Could the training be better?, yep... could we use it to be even more "exclusive"?, yep
Could we do a better job?, Yep...but before we sink under the weight of this argument, again most "Sport Divers" go to warm waters once or twice a year and follow a dive master around at less than 60' for 40-60 minutes for 3-9 tank dives and then head home...each dive a little more than you'd get in a resort course dive or a discover scuba dive, but not at the outer limit of their capacity....
oceanaddicted
Registered
A lot of what is said here depends greatly on the instructor AND student. Personally I agree we need a longer duration than 2-3 days. That's a large amount of information to process in such a short amount of time. And any Instructor worth his salt will not teach in those circumstances for liability reasons. My classes run 5-6 weeks. Each week we meet for 6-8 hours for both pool and classroom training. We make two confined water dives on the 4th meeting and depending on how well the class has done, we do the final OW dives on the 6th class meeting. I'm fortunate enough to live in Florida so the training dives are in both Salt and Fresh Water. We cover everything from beach diving, boat diving and drift diving that Florida has to offer. I make every attempt to teach the student everything I know within the OW certification level. This results in the student being confident, informed and most of all safety conscious. And I have taught them more things than is covered in any text book and that specifically limits my liability in the event of an accident. Remember, once a student is certified by an instructor, that instructor bears the liability for that student for life. Not fair but it's the truth. Believe me, I'm going to make sure my students have performed well in class and have outstanding academics. They're worth it.
Shar
Shar
travelmadness
Contributor
i hadn't realized they'd laxed on this in recent years
RikRaeder
Contributor
The OP makes a lot of sense, if the extra time is used for skills practice. I first certified about 20 years ago (wish I'd stuck with it). The class lasted two weeks; we met three times a week. We put in quite a few class hours. We put in no, repeat, no time in skills training in the pool. Looking back on the instruction I recieved, I'd say we were quite lucky that we all made it out of the water unscathed (first dive at Cannery Row, Monterey in .5m visibility, second at Monastery Beach, Carmel in 3' surf). We got many hours of decent theory training , but our pool time consisted of a swimming test...only. My two-day resort course in Saipan last year was very scant on classroom instruction (we studied on our own, then tested the first day) but heavy on pool work. I'd say, for me, I learned a lot more in Saipan. Of course, I had a lot of the theoretical background from the hours I sat in the cold classroom long ago (much of which is currently outdated). I'd agree with the OP with the caveat that those extra hours not be wasted, and that some actual skills practice be done in the pool. Guess it depends on the instructor (geeze, I think I heard that somewhere before).
Buoyant1
Contributor
Hadn't read through the entire thread and I apologize if anyone mentioned it already, but as someone that works in the insurance industry, and knows how certain trends can force issues (think baby seats, seat belts, etc.) If the dive insurance industry decides that there are way too many accidents happening because of training issues, you can imagine that people won't be able to get dive insurance without being poperly certified by the agencies that are being underwritten BY the insurance companies! (and with that also in mind, could force the hand of outside regulation and force laws to be made regarding certification)
I considered a resort certification when some things weren't working to my satisfaction and time, but when a local shop opened up in my area I jumped on it! After the fact I wondered why the training was so basic (and this was no fault of the LDS, it's the current curriculum) as far as dealing with the problem situations (like I recently read in an article on deep diving ...loosely translated..."In problem situations, such as an out of air situation, the diver signals to the buddy, who hands him the regulator, then both divers give the "ok" sign and go merrily on their way smiling") I fully expected during my OW dives that someone would sneak up and rip my reg out of my mouth or pull my mask off to see what I would do if the unexpected happens! I'm glad that they didn't, but you know what....what will I do if that actually DOES happen?
I'm glad that the agencies show you what to do, but there should be some sort of controlled environment part of the course where unexpected things happen and you need to deal with them. Maybe there needs to be a seperate course for this (I know...another opportunity for the agency to make more money on a course) But as an incentive the insurance companies could offer a rebate or discount for people that DO take the course. Bottom line is that it's your ***** on the line..since it's mine? I want to know everything and practice everything! (And have the opp for winter pool time with my LDS during their OW classes to do it, you KNOW I'm taking advantage of that!)
Just early morning thoughts.....
I considered a resort certification when some things weren't working to my satisfaction and time, but when a local shop opened up in my area I jumped on it! After the fact I wondered why the training was so basic (and this was no fault of the LDS, it's the current curriculum) as far as dealing with the problem situations (like I recently read in an article on deep diving ...loosely translated..."In problem situations, such as an out of air situation, the diver signals to the buddy, who hands him the regulator, then both divers give the "ok" sign and go merrily on their way smiling") I fully expected during my OW dives that someone would sneak up and rip my reg out of my mouth or pull my mask off to see what I would do if the unexpected happens! I'm glad that they didn't, but you know what....what will I do if that actually DOES happen?
I'm glad that the agencies show you what to do, but there should be some sort of controlled environment part of the course where unexpected things happen and you need to deal with them. Maybe there needs to be a seperate course for this (I know...another opportunity for the agency to make more money on a course) But as an incentive the insurance companies could offer a rebate or discount for people that DO take the course. Bottom line is that it's your ***** on the line..since it's mine? I want to know everything and practice everything! (And have the opp for winter pool time with my LDS during their OW classes to do it, you KNOW I'm taking advantage of that!)
Just early morning thoughts.....
PePaw
Guest
It's been my expierience in life that "generalization" never works.
The wife and I just finished our OW class/pool over the weekend with our local PADI shop. They didn't try to sell us anything and our instructors were two very devoted divers who took the time to make sure that you knew every skill and had you repeat it until your were comfortable doing it.
It is because of their patience and dedication that my wife and I left the course feeling very excited about our new venture.
And why as soon as the holidays are over we will be back to drop a considerable sum on our own equipment. WE WANT TO NOW SUPPORT THIS PLACE !
During the pool sessions they were very willing to let us try out different bcd's and regs so that we could discover what we liked and what was most comfortable.
I'm sure that there are shops/instructors out there who are in it for the money and turn out divers like Carter's turns out little pills.
But there are very good PADI shops as well.
JMHO for what it's worth.
The wife and I just finished our OW class/pool over the weekend with our local PADI shop. They didn't try to sell us anything and our instructors were two very devoted divers who took the time to make sure that you knew every skill and had you repeat it until your were comfortable doing it.
It is because of their patience and dedication that my wife and I left the course feeling very excited about our new venture.
And why as soon as the holidays are over we will be back to drop a considerable sum on our own equipment. WE WANT TO NOW SUPPORT THIS PLACE !
During the pool sessions they were very willing to let us try out different bcd's and regs so that we could discover what we liked and what was most comfortable.
I'm sure that there are shops/instructors out there who are in it for the money and turn out divers like Carter's turns out little pills.
But there are very good PADI shops as well.
JMHO for what it's worth.
For a little historical perspective on how this pendulum swings look back to diving in the late 50s and early 60s. I knew plenty of divers that never took a certification course because they viewed it as a money sucking boot camp that they didn’t feel they needed for the type diving they wanted to do – so is it better to make a class so expensive/tough/long or whatever that people just borrow a buddies tank and go dive without a class or offer degrees of dive education to match the customers needs.
I know plenty of divers with over 100 dives over 10 years that only dive in clear warm water above 60’ with a paid guide or divemaster. Do we really want to drive them out of the dive market because we think after that many dives they should be able to do the Doria or go off on their own unescorted dive trips?
I do believe it is the instructor’s responsibility in an OW class to make clear to their students what their personal limits should be and the importance of continuing their dive education before tackling more challenging dives. I also wonder if we push an overview of more advanced topics on students in OW whether too many students will walk out thinking they know more about those advanced topics than what they do – and they could get themselves in more trouble than if they were simply told come back to learn the next step. In the aviation world we’ve seen plenty of crashes caused because a private pilot thought the few hours of instrument time he received was sufficient to take off in the clouds without an instrument rating.
An open water C card is a certificate to start learning to dive.
I know plenty of divers with over 100 dives over 10 years that only dive in clear warm water above 60’ with a paid guide or divemaster. Do we really want to drive them out of the dive market because we think after that many dives they should be able to do the Doria or go off on their own unescorted dive trips?
I do believe it is the instructor’s responsibility in an OW class to make clear to their students what their personal limits should be and the importance of continuing their dive education before tackling more challenging dives. I also wonder if we push an overview of more advanced topics on students in OW whether too many students will walk out thinking they know more about those advanced topics than what they do – and they could get themselves in more trouble than if they were simply told come back to learn the next step. In the aviation world we’ve seen plenty of crashes caused because a private pilot thought the few hours of instrument time he received was sufficient to take off in the clouds without an instrument rating.
An open water C card is a certificate to start learning to dive.
Sorry if I'm being redundant, because I didn't read all 16 thread pages... but if everyone could have the types of instructors (1 PADI, 1 Naui) that I had, they would be very lucky. I was not a "quick study", and without making a short story long, I had "issues" that I worked out through tenacity and instructor patience. Both of my instructors made it clear to me that they were with me through the long haul, and that I could train as long as I needed to, in order to feel ready to take my OW test. As it turned out, I only needed two full-length (month long) courses, but it is nice to know from the beginning that there is no pressure on to hurry up and finish.
My dad is taking flying lessons and he already has more hours than he needs to have his license, but he is doing additional training and practicing before he takes his license. I guess we're alike- both want to make da#$ sure that we make it back from our adventures.
My dad is taking flying lessons and he already has more hours than he needs to have his license, but he is doing additional training and practicing before he takes his license. I guess we're alike- both want to make da#$ sure that we make it back from our adventures.
From what I can gather the 2 day course your referring to sounds like the PADI Scuba Diver course (or at least something similar). Whereas people participating in this course are certified divers, they are only certified to dive to 12m & they have to dive with a professional (eg DM or instructor). A lot of people at the resort where I work go for this option as they don't have time in thier holiday for the full open water course.
Trying to fit a full open water course into 2 days sounds pretty impossible to me, I sometimes struggle to fit everything into 4 days.
Trying to fit a full open water course into 2 days sounds pretty impossible to me, I sometimes struggle to fit everything into 4 days.
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