Theres nothing that gets me going more than statements like A BP is more complex than a BC and A BP is for technical diving only and Liquid hit not just some but all the buttons. Which post to start with? Might as well start with the first one
>>I take it that MAIBE in two years you will start with
>>technical diving. In this case, there is really no
>>reason to go with a BP.
No.
Given his guess as how frequently he will dive, in two years that'll put him around 100 dives. Now, as he moves into the technical arena, following your advice hell have to UNLEARN all the habits and techniques that hes internalized in two years/100 dives and relearn a completely different diving methodology. Not only is this advice bad, its potentially dangerous.
>>It is not as comfortable to dive with as standard
>>jacket style BCs
No.
In Cozumel I dive in a skin with a backplate and its more comfortable than any BC Ive ever dove with.
>>It's harder to manuver with for new divers
No.
Its far more streamlined than a normal BC and therefore is far, far more maneuverable than a normal BC.
>>and it is not originaly intended for recreational diving.
Yes.
Just like SPGs were not originally intended for recreational diving (cavers started using them first) and BCs were not originally intended for recreational diving (again, the cavers) and, for a different kind of example, seat belts were not originally intended for normal driving. Not originally intended is an incredibly weak argument. Who cares what it was originally intended for, where does it work well NOW is the question that should be answered.
>> the BP is intended for technical dives, of a
>>kind that requiers quite some experience.
No.
I was wearing a backplate before I started technical diving and, as I alluded to in my first response, when I went from my dive skin and an AL80 to a dry suit and double 104s, I only ADDED to my equipment interface, I didnt have to CHANGE anything. It not only makes the transition from recreational to technical (in terms of equipment) painless, it makes it safer.
Ok, moving onto the second post
>>It seems everyone here is "poisoned" with the BP
>>rig, so there isn't any point on arguing about it.
Excellent observation. Its hard to get many to agree with bad advice.
>>For recreational diving jacket BC is better.
>>It's designed for it, BP isn't designed for it.
No.
A backplate is designed for ALL kinds of diving. You add or delete equipment from it and it goes from recreational to technical with very little learning curve, allowing you to focus on skills, not equipment changes. And even if you never go technical it still gives you a vastly simpler, vastly more streamlined set of equipment that leads to easier diving, therefore better air consumption, therefore longer dives and therefore, ultimately, a much better enjoyment of the sport.
>>Yes BP does look cool, and looking cool is a very
>>important aspect of diving.
Actually a BP doesnt look very cool, which is why so many divers are lured into buying fashion tek BCs like the Zeagles, etc. A good backplate setup doesnt have nearly enough D rings to attract chicks.
Note its the BCs that youre a proponent of that are available in a wide range of colors, so it becomes a spectacular fashion accessory.
>>Ordinary BCs are simpler tha BP. It's a fact, and you
>>can all scream to heavens, but it's still true.
No.
I wont scream, Ill just calmly point out that youre wrong. Whenever I aquarium dive I have to wear a common BC (as well as wearing many common and no so common ones since the 70s), so Im quite familiar with both the BP and a common BC. Lets see, on the BC is have three fastex buckles, one on each shoulder and one on my waist. I have to loosen, then tighten them, in the case of the waist I can adjust it on both sides. This is versus just one waist buckle on the BP that when I fasten it, the process of fastening it IS adjusting it. Done. Now on the common BC I have a shoulder dump that has cables and remote operated valves (I wont even go into that abomination, the HUB here). No shoulder dump on a good wing, just the simple dump at the end of the hose, and a simple dump at the base of the wing. In addition, teaching someone to yank on a piece of equipment that can fail relatively easily with catastrophic results is just simply a bad idea to begin with! Lastly, the bladders have complex welds in them to conform to the body, around the arms, into the shoulders, across the tank attachment point, etc. Wings are just a doughnut or U shape and youre done. Not nearly as much stress points. Ill just hand-wave over the manufacturing complexities like the stitching that goes into multiple points where straps are sewn into fabric, where pockets are built in, where snaps and D rings are sewn in, etc. A wing has a simple peripheral stitch around the border. Again, far less stress. And on a BC when the stitches fail where straps are sewn into the fabric? You usually are forced into buying another BC. What happens when a BP harness merely gets worn? Pop into your LDS and buy $5 worth of weight belt webbing and you have a whole, brand-new harness.
>>Someone that just got certified, and goes for his
>>first dives without an instructor, shouldn't be using
>>a piece of equipment he is not used to.
Some common ground. Youre right, more instructors SHOULD be teaching using superior equipment, rather than the old-fashioned common BC. But dagnabbit, you just cant profit from BPs like you can BCs because no one upgrades once they get into a BP! That must be the reason that shops doggedly teach in common BCs, you get multiple equipment sales as folks upgrade.
>>He should keep everything as simple as possible.
Yes.
>>When he get's experienced, he can try new concepts.
And the beauty of staring out with a BP is that when you try new concepts, you can concentrate on the concepts themselves without throwing some kind of equipment reconfiguration into the mix.
>>I keep the BP for dives that need it, and the BC for
>>the dives that won't require a BP
So you feel that donating your primary via a long hose one day and donating some octo stuffed into a pocket the next day is conducive to being able to handle an OOA emergency in a react-before-thinking-because-moments-count manner? I dont, which is why I like diving the same foundation from recreational diving to technical diving. A thousand feet back in a cave I donate my primary regulator from my mouth. In Cozumel I STILL donate my primary from my mouth. Nothing to unlearn, nothing to relearn, nothing to change.
>>
my back, it feels way better with the back system of an
>>ordinary BC.
My guess is that this is the big reason you are a BC proponent. And thats an excellent reason for you to dive with a BC. Just dont project that reason onto others.
>>Let's talk rescue. If someone needs to rescue you and you
>>weare a BP and it's a system he's not familiar with, it
>>will be harder for him.
Back to a basic DIR tenant. If everyone is configured the same, you know EXACTLY how to handle it. To argue that you should adopt an inferior system because theres more of it out there rather than the superior system is exactly why we ended up with mediocre VHS video systems rather than Beta.
Youre right, a BP is not as common a system as the normal BC. But its gaining popularity by leaps and bounds, and maybe, just maybe, soon itll be common enough that a responsible shop will teach rescue students how to rescue someone in a BP, since you aptly make the point that the shops are irresponsible at the moment because they arent.
>>
but people, really, no reason why a brand new diver
>>should buy himself a BP. waste of money.
No, the waste of money is the folks that have to pitch their BC because they find out that the design is limited and wont take them where they want their diving to go. The lucky ones only get one BC and then upgrade to a BP. The unlucky ones go through several BCs before they make it to a BP. The wisest start out with a BP and merely have to buy a new wing or two as their diving advances.
eBay is full of BCs being dumped by divers stepping up to BPs.
Now THATS a real waste of money.
Lastly, an observation. I live in Colorado, which is full of, as I jokingly call them, pro-leisure-circuit types. These folks wont think of spending thousands of dollars on bike parts, helmets and clothes that are just a smidgen more aerodynamic than parts, helmets and clothes that are less aerodynamic and far cheaper. But when they jump into a medium thats 800 times as dense as air, they wont bat an eye at buying a BC with a huge cross-sectional area. Color: Your most important equipment choice is what the dive shops jokingly tell students around here. Problem is, the shops dont tell them what really IS their most important choice.
Roak
