Tired of DIR

[maddiver]

So I'm not DIR anymore because I carry spools on my rear dring and dive caves where multiple spools are necessary for gaps/jumps etc. How many spools can you fit in your 'pocket'? Quite honestly, George can say what he wants but if you tell me its not DIR and imply in any way that it is dangerous/suboptimal you should be prepared to back up your statements with personal study and impressions other than PITA and invitation for trouble...care to elaborate?


So say you dive in Mexico and are doing a dive requiring 7 jump/gap spools (yes you have a buddy) and you also must carry your back up/safety spool in your pocket...are you saying that on the stage or on the left hip dring is the best way to do this. I have to disagree, with one member being forced to have 4 spools just waiting to get grabed by the line, speleothem, etc if worn on left side.


GUE and George do differ on things and it is a closely guarded secret that many of George's 'Horses' couldn't pass GUE Cave 2 or Tech 3 classes.....So put your spools where you want and call me a 'stroke' if you like for wearing some on my rear dring.....but I can invite you on a dive where I'm sure you could see the value of wearing them the way I do (and is ok and taught per GUE standards/procedures.....call up the EE shop and ask someone) as opposed to left hipping it. We were diving this way long before GUE btw.

Originally posted by Munin


Spools on the rear d-ring are not DIR. GI just said not to today, in fact.

(Squawk!) Spools go in a pocket. That is DIR. Reels on the hip d-ring or on a stage. Lift bag on a leash to the front d-ring. Rear d- rings are for cave only. (/Squawk!)

And from personal experience, carrying spools anywhere but in a pocket is a PITA and an invitation for trouble. If you're DIR you have pockets, right?

A GUE instructor certainly knows more than I do, but I just thought I'd pass on what GI said. Squawk!

 

[Divesherpa]

I felt the urge to respond on the subject of DIR and divemastering. One of my DM candidates recently finished GUE Cave 1. He is DIR all the way, except when he is around my students, and when he dives with a stroke like myself. We do simple cave dives together, but not on the students nickel.
When an Open Water instructor is conducting a class, the divemaster/'s should wear exactly what the students are wearing. This avoids confusion for the students, who are trying to breathe underwater while suffering from some semblance of anxiety. Let's say that GUE forms an Open Water Class. Who is gonna sign up for it? Which of the very experienced instructors would teach it?
My limited experience teaches me that new divers are here to have fun, just as I am here to have fun. For the most part, they buy gear that keeps the market growing. The purchases made by individuals fund the research into better regulators and other gear, keeps manufacturers interested in a limited market, and assist in paying for several lobbyist groups that keep scuba legal.
Without "strokes", who would manufacture gear?

Cheers

 

[Uncle Pug]

I agree completely with you Sherp.

 

[Munin]

I probably should have been a little more careful phrasing that... I didn't mean to imply that anyone was a stroke (unless they are, of course ).

Carrying seven spools for caving is not the situation that I was thinking of when I posted. I'm sure that the majorty of DIR divers do not have to carry that many; most probably carry only one or two. In that case they should be carrying them in a pocket, if possible. We both agree on that. I posted a reply to your (maddiver's) post:

Spools on the rear d-ring are not 'anti-DIR/GUE'. Your safety spool should go in your pocket but it is perfectly accepted to place spools on your rear D-ring.

My objection was to your suggesting that the rear d-ring was a perfectly suitable place to put spools in any situation. You were not specific about your own need to carry a large number of spools. I personally don't think that someone reading this should get the impression that it is the proper place to put a single spool and is as acceptable as a pocket. A DIR diver should have pockets and normally spools are to be carried in his pockets.

How many spools can you fit in your 'pocket'?

Two easily, three if I have to. And I have the Halcyon pockets, not the DUI, which look like they're suitably large to carry enough spools for a trans-Atlantic crossing.

you should be prepared to back up your statements with personal study and impressions other than PITA and invitation for trouble...care to elaborate?

I've had spools come unclipped more than once, usually when they were carried on my hip d-ring, and once or twice when I used to pre-rig a lift bag and they were clipped to my rear d-ring. There's nothing like trailing 150' of line and a spool to make one think of a better place to carry them. Just having a spool and two extra lift bags clipped off to the rear d-ring gets messy. I have yet to have a spool come undone in my pocket and even if one did, it would not be a problem.

So say you dive in Mexico and are doing a dive requiring 7 jump/gap spools (yes you have a buddy) and you also must carry your back up/safety spool in your pocket...are you saying that on the stage or on the left hip dring is the best way to do this. I have to disagree, with one member being forced to have 4 spools just waiting to get grabed by the line, speleothem, etc if worn on left side.

No. I'd probably carry them on my rear d-ring. GI said that rear d-rings shouldn't be used for wreck diving and are unnecessary for open water. I repeated this in the part I parroted: "rear d-rings are for cave only." The rest of his message, which i didn't bother to include but probably should have, said that rear d-rings are used in caving. However, they should only be used for carrying extra equipment for major dives. Like seven spools. Exactly what you're doing. I really don't disagree; I should have been clearer.

GUE and George do differ on things and it is a closely guarded secret that many of George's 'Horses' couldn't pass GUE Cave 2 or Tech 3 classes.....So put your spools where you want and call me a 'stroke' if you like for wearing some on my rear dring.....but I can invite you on a dive where I'm sure you could see the value of wearing them the way I do (and is ok and taught per GUE standards/procedures.....call up the EE shop and ask someone) as opposed to left hipping it. We were diving this way long before GUE btw.

Who decides what is or isn't DIR is another discussion. So is your opinion of George. Most DIR divers care about what he says. I thought that it was worth repeating what he said, and I made sure that I clearly stated its origin. Whether you want to disregard what he says or not is your own business.

As I said before, I wouldn't want somebody to think that they should put a spool on their rear d-ring unless its necessary, and thats why I posted. Pockets are a much better place. IMO, one should get pockets rather than use the rear d-ring, if possible. Your situation is different. My apologies for the confusion.

Munin

 

[Munin]

Ooops! I just realized how long that was. Sorry everybody.

 

[maddiver]

Probably confusion on both sides as you pointed out I wasn't clear that safety goes in pocket at *all* times. I listen to what George has to say and take it in stride. I find him a very accomplished and knowledgible diver. However, I will bet you that when pina and george go to Mx and dive the small stuff....either he puts some of the spools on his rear dring (and has before) or leaves out some of his 'usual' gear to accommodate the many spools. now granted this is a 'special' application but how does this fit into the DIR mantra of not changing anything (ie in your pocket contents to allow for extra spools?). I feel that in a cave environment placement of multiple spools (with safety and possibly second in pocket) is best done on rear d-ring and i can leave my 2 pocket contents intact and thus retain the most important 'muscle memory' that is key in reaction time. I wonder if one day I will get my picture on the FAS photo page for wearing spools on rear dring.

I don't think George is 'wrong' and to me either way is not 'dangerous' in a cave environ (I agree with the wreck application and obviously would never take that number of spools for that application). The key issue to me is that people don't walk away with half the picture and end up down the road dumping key saftey gear/pocket contents they normally dive with to follow something they saw on the internet....I don't believe george really wants this either and expects people to know better. Again it all depends on your diving. You dive S FL (maybe don't dive caves?) then that's a great system but there are some complications when moving into the cave environ. I had one guy reply to me and say he would jsut dump his back up mask....not smart in my opinion (being that far back in a cave and losing a mask would really suck and is more dangerous than placing the spools on the rear d ring).

I am not George and don't imply that I have the knowledge base he does, just that he expects a little more thought in the application of his tactics. No offense to anyone intended. But lets be clear on what is and what isn't dangerous in a given situation.

Originally posted by Munin

Pockets are a much better place. IMO, one should get pockets rather than use the rear d-ring, if possible. Your situation is different. My apologies for the confusion.

Munin

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I'd be really interested to see what a GUE open water class entails. I do believe that it is much easer to teach people the "right" way to do something the first time rather than take someone who has had the opportunity to learn bad habits because they don't know any better, tell them that what they are doing is wrong, and try to reteach them.

Even if the class produces better divers who are more aware of their environment, have better bouyancy control skills, and don't rototill it will be better than what is out there. If it has a high failure rate and is considerably more expensive to take than other OW classes I think it will be a short lived program.

My opinions

Scuba diving needs more true ambassadors. It needs people who can diplomatically pose changes and stear the course of the sport. Constant infighting between factions only serves to tear the sport apart and invites what very few of us want. Extreme sports like ours has a strong potential for government regulation and becomming a source for government revenue. This is the last thing that many of us want to see.

Tom

 

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by Manogr
What I don't understand is why transform a diving attitude into a religious-like belief....
.......
Manogr

I think people take it so seriously (you can call it a religion if you want) because not doing so may mean the end of your life. And in the end, what is more important than that?

It's the lacksidaisical (sp?) attitude that will kill you.

 

[aquanut]

DIR is needed for all those who cannot think for themselves!

The DIR philosophy is good, and it works, but it is not the only way to dive. Adopt it to fit your own style of diving.

 

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by aquanut
DIR is needed for all those who cannot think for themselves!

The DIR philosophy is good, and it works, but it is not the only way to dive. Adopt it to fit your own style of diving.

Those are interesting comments. They contradict each other.

It's good.
It works.
Adopt it.

Only for those that can't think for themselves.

Taken to the extreme, why bother taking diving lessons? Just grab a tank and jump in. Don't need no stinkin decompression theory, Boyles law, etc. Just do it!!

You've been listening to too many NIKE commercials.