Tips on starting diving doubles

[ofg-1]

Don't take the pontificating you see here too seriously.

Does that include yours?

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@Nick_Radov my experience here has mostly been “what would happen if I do <thing>?” “Don’t do <thing>. It’s bad and you’ll probably die.” “why is it bad?” “Do you think you’re smarter than every diver ever? If it were good, we would do it that way. It’s bad, don’t do it, you’ll die.”

I made a post about incorporating a pony into my dive plan as a weird pseudo stage a while back, and that’s exactly what happened. The only useful comments I got pointed out that the expense and the hassle weren’t really worth it for ~15 mins of bottom time, which I ended up agreeing with and thus abandoned that plan, but even after everyone telling me I would die for unspecified reasons, I remain unconvinced there was anything actually dangerous about the notion.

Thus far, this discussion has gone about the same: I understand why independant doubles may be inconvient or annoying compared to manifolded ones, but I don’t really get why they’re unsafe. Sidemount uses two independant tanks, and it’s safe if you know what you’re doing, and thus far, no one has explained what makes independant doubles fundamentally different. Someone point out you can see your sidemount tanks better, which is far, but this flaw applies equally to all backmounted doubles, so I still don’t see why independant is worse.

If this is how most conversations on here go, I can see how the cycle you mentioned has lasted so long. Why on earth would I not do something that seems like it will work well for my use case, in favor of something that requires significant extra hassle and expense (renting a storage unit, for example, required both extra driving and the cost of the unit) if no one has actually told me why what I’m planning to do is bad or unsafe? Maybe I overlooked a comment that did, and if so feel free to point it out, but as she stands, You’re expecting me to be convinced simply because independant doubles aren’t “what everybody uses” and I just don’t see how that adds up to them being dangerous or prohibitively hard to use.

And yet, this thread will likely be another example of the cycle you mentioned, since we’ve got nearly ten pages of discussion, and I’m just not convinced, because I still don’t think anyone’s told me why independent doubles are so much of a danger or unuseable.

 

[SelfDiver]

@Nick_Radov my experience here has mostly been “what would happen if I do <thing>?” “Don’t do <thing>. It’s bad and you’ll probably die.” “why is it bad?” “Do you think you’re smarter than every diver ever? If it were good, we would do it that way. It’s bad, don’t do it, you’ll die.”

I made a post about incorporating a pony into my dive plan as a weird pseudo stage a while back, and that’s exactly what happened. The only useful comments I got pointed out that the expense and the hassle weren’t really worth it for ~15 mins of bottom time, which I ended up agreeing with and thus abandoned that plan, but even after everyone telling me I would die for unspecified reasons, I remain unconvinced there was anything actually dangerous about the notion.

Thus far, this discussion has gone about the same: I understand why independant doubles may be inconvient or annoying compared to manifolded ones, but I don’t really get why they’re unsafe. Sidemount uses two independant tanks, and it’s safe if you know what you’re doing, and thus far, no one has explained what makes independant doubles fundamentally different. Someone point out you can see your sidemount tanks better, which is far, but this flaw applies equally to all backmounted doubles, so I still don’t see why independant is worse.

If this is how most conversations on here go, I can see how the cycle you mentioned has lasted so long. Why on earth would I not do something that seems like it will work well for my use case, in favor of something that requires significant extra hassle and expense (renting a storage unit, for example, required both extra driving and the cost of the unit) if no one has actually told me why what I’m planning to do is bad or unsafe? Maybe I overlooked a comment that did, and if so feel free to point it out, but as she stands, You’re expecting me to be convinced simply because independant doubles aren’t “what everybody uses” and I just don’t see how that adds up to them being dangerous or prohibitively hard to use.

And yet, this thread will likely be another example of the cycle you mentioned, since we’ve got nearly ten pages of discussion, and I’m just not convinced, because I still don’t think anyone’s told me why independent doubles are so much of a danger or unuseable.

"I still don’t think anyone’s told me why independent doubles are so much of a danger or unuseable."
Because they aren't.

I would be happy to do a video chat with you (and any other rubberneckers) to help set you up in different configurations 100% Free of charge.
1-Independent back mount doubles.
2-Single back mount with stage
3-Left right sidemount
4-Manifolded doubles (but don't buy anything yet.)
I have a trip this coming Wednesday for a week, but we can schedule something for after.

We can also talk through emergency procedures and exercises you need to do for each configuration.
Out of air buddy breathing
Freeflowing regulators
Gas management and planning
Busted 1st stage
Busted tank valve or neck Oring
Connect and disconnect stage
Remove and replace BCD with doubles
Proper weighting
And so on.

I think your heart is in the right place. Any of these configurations will help your progress. I want to help you and the community

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@SelfDiver I’d appreciate that. I’m also very busy for the next week, and my schedule is usually pretty hectic, but I’m not planning to go out and dive doubles anytime in the next month or so, so I’m sure we could find a time to suit. I really appreciate the offer, thanks

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

@SouthernSharktoothDiver
Don't let these koolaiding zealots get under your skin. I've been dealing with their crap since 1999 so don't worry about it. Brainwashing is a powerful thing.
I re-read your OP and for what your doing there is no problem with independent doubles. I even bought years ago a special set of independent doubles brackets that OMS made for the traveling tech diver. I still have them, they're made out of solid brass.
Steel 72's are a wonderful thing

So, you're diving from shore in 30' of water, and eventually will be losing the buddy. Just figure out a way to run your second stages so you know which tank is to which second stage, maybe one on a long hose and the other bungeed? Run two SPG's, one on each side. Switch off periodically. Figure out your own protocols based on your own reasoning.
Avoid dogma.
You'll figure it out, it's not the big death sentence that some make it out to be.
Have fun!

 

[jborg]

Sidemount uses two independant tanks, and it’s safe if you know what you’re doing, and thus far, no one has explained what makes independant doubles fundamentally different. Someone point out you can see your sidemount tanks better, which is far, but this flaw applies equally to all backmounted doubles, so I still don’t see why independant is worse.

So, to begin with, you do you -- if you want to dive independent doubles solo in your described environment, go for it. The reasons for not using IDs are often for other situations (not solo; not shallow; etc) and by people (including me) who think it's sensible to use one equipment configuration that covers all those environments sensibly. So, you can ignore all the points below for your chosen scenario, but then you'll need to retrain your mind and muscle memory when you choose to move outside of that specific scenario, for example by adding a buddy or doing deeper dives.

As for why IDs are not just side mount in a different flavour, consider;

- You can't see or as easily manipulate your valves. This matters if you get a freeflow for example, where in sidemount you can fairly easily feather the valve per breath and still use it. With IDs you've just lost access half your gas or you're in for a very annoying time trying to feather a valve behind your head.

- As an extension of the above, you again need to keep track of what you're breathing but you can't see the valves and follow the hoses as easily. So you differentiate them by for example having one on a long hose and one bungeed, but then the "just donate what you're breathing" becomes tricky about half of the time. (Or you start inventing systems based on different mouthpieces and color coding and then we're into convoluted nonsense again.)

- Other divers are more or less familiar with sidemount and backmounted doubles, as these are very common configurations. This helps in situation when donating gas etc as people understand what to expect; they will most likely not, with your setup, which compounds the above.

- Any other first or second stage failure will leave you without access to half of your gas. This is a tradeoff made in sidemount for the advantages brought by sidemount, but you're not really getting any of those advantages so it's just a negative. So you can start adding H/Y valves and having a backup second stage per cylinder but, again, this is convoluted nonsense territory.

Adding a manifold magically resolves all of these problems. But again, for solo at 30 ft, do whatever, if you like.

 

[Nick_Radov]

And yet, this thread will likely be another example of the cycle you mentioned, since we’ve got nearly ten pages of discussion, and I’m just not convinced, because I still don’t think anyone’s told me why independent doubles are so much of a danger or unuseable.

It's not my job to convince you of anything. I've given you a solid recommendation on how to take the next step in your diving journey. But if you're approaching this like a debate and expecting to be convinced then you have entirely the wrong mindset. Take it leave it. Good luck.

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@Nick_Radov "It's not my job to convince you" loses a lot of weight when you joined this thread of your own free will and offered an opinion and recommendations. Particularly since your recommendations are pretty specific and likely most intensive here (Buying a course, renting a storage unit, even the other manifold supporters here aren't recommending a course, by and large). Sure, you're not obligated to do jack all, but if your habit is to join a conversation, offer advice unsupported by arguments as to why your advice should be preferred to another course of action, and then say you've said your piece and you're done, you're wasting everybody's time, including your own.

And yeah, I'm perhaps somewhat debate-y in my typing style. A solid third of immediate family's lawyers and some the style of talking and writing rubs off. Sue me (pun intended). I'm not here to start a fight. I'm here to learn. You saying "you should take a course and dive this style" is not educational, because you've provided little to no information in accompaniment of it. Furthermore, the fact that your time is apparently to valuable to write about a paragraph explaining the dangers/flaws you allege independent doubles have, yet is not too valuable to write a paragraph of pointless explanation for why you don't need to justify your opinions, is rather odd. It gives me the impression you're either trolling, or you've got exactly jack all in the way of reasons for the opinions you hold, at least in this instance. Do with that what you will.

@jborg You make a good point about keeping a consistent setup. As part of my education in engineering in college we did a lot of failure analysis, and it was fairly common to see "Something was different, and we didn't account for it" as the source of the failure. That being said, I'm not entirely sure how to act on that paradigm. As it currently stands, I don't know that I'll ever do dives that need a manifold. I do intend to get into tech diving eventually, but as it stands I'd like to do rebreathers instead of open circuit for technical stuff. I'm not saying I won't ever dive a manifold, just that at the moment, assuming independent doubles works for my current use case, I'm not sure I'll ever dive outside that use case in a manner that calls for manifolded doubles. In light of that, not sure it's worth adjusting my intended setup, given the extra expense and the hassle of tying up tanks with a manifold, which limits the diving I can do with them easily.

However, your comment's been one of the more compelling ones I've seen on the subject, and I'd like to get your opinion further on the matter. Any ideas you have on either a "happy medium" or a way to make going to a manifold less of a pain? If you didn't read the comment, the tl;dr is that from what I know of manifolded doubles, they're basically only useable as doubles, since the takedown is rather effort intensive and requires you to go a get a fill. Since I don't need even more dive gear filling up my rather small apartment at this time, I'm hesitant to sacrifice my single tank capacity for doubles, especially since I may end up hating diving them for all I know.

 

[jborg]

I do intend to get into tech diving eventually, but as it stands I'd like to do rebreathers instead of open circuit for technical stuff. I'm not saying I won't ever dive a manifold, just that at the moment, assuming independent doubles works for my current use case, I'm not sure I'll ever dive outside that use case in a manner that calls for manifolded doubles. In light of that, not sure it's worth adjusting my intended setup, given the extra expense and the hassle of tying up tanks with a manifold, which limits the diving I can do with them easily.

I think this is the most compelling argument to just go with manifolded doubles directly, to be honest. Tech diving is all about muscle memory for failure handling and you'll be setting yourself up for a much harder time later by "doing it wrong" now. I also doubt there is a straight path from shallow solo diving to deep rebreather tech diving, you will very likely pass through an open circuit tech stage which, again, will be manifolded doubles.

Honestly, you have a fair amount of tanks (eight singles, if I read/remembered correctly?). I'd convert half of them to two doubles and be happy. That's approximately the amount of tanks I have in the garage, give or take. Keeping in mind that a twinset will give you two shallow dives I don't think this should be too limiting -- how often do you need to go away and dive with more than four singles or two twinsets without getting a fill in between?

(Also, tech diving is all about expense and hassle. If you think you're going down that path in the future, better get used to that part of it now )

 

[SouthernSharktoothDiver]

@jborg You make a fair point about muscle memory. I'll need to think it over. As for direct paths, I believe you can go from a standard rec certification (AOW, perhaps) to beginner rebreather, but I'd need to recheck the certs. I do believe there's a path where you learn deco on rebreather without taking regular deco training, but I could be wrong.

As for the number of tanks I have, you're correct about me having 8. The issue is that it's a pretty fair drive to the nearest fill guy (30 minutes, 1 way, plus figuring 20 minutes to fill several tanks and pay and all that, about an hour and half to get fills, minimum), and frankly I just hate making the trip. It's what made me go from two tanks to eight in about four months. Also, I'm hoping to spend most of my time off diving, so binges are likely. For example, this week I'm planning to use all eight of my tanks, and likely need to get refills by Wednesday. But you're right, I could definitely double up two sets and still have several to spare.

One thing's for sure: I won't be starting doubles this week, and my next dive after this week will likely be in June, so I've got some time to make up my mind. I appreciate the advice/tips.

Edit: Oh, also, one minor point that I suppose is worth considering. I'm not, strictly speaking, solo diving. I always dive with a buddy, and in particularly unfamiliar or dicey conditions, we run a tether between us to avoid separation. Most of the time, we just kind of do our own thing and with poor vis, often get separated, so I go into it with the mindset of it being solo diving (Ie, I carry a pony bottle and have thought through the possibility of CESA), but I suppose it is worth considering that I'm not, technically, solo, and so might need to provide air in a hurry. Currently, both my main reg and pony reg are long enough/stowed such that I can donate them. Figure if my buddy comes screaming out of the black and snatches either reg, I'm set up to use the other one without any trouble.