Tipping....how much do you tip?

[RJP]

Here's what I can't understand. You book a trip with a dive op for X amount of dollars. Then if you want or need a DM, you get charged anywhere from $10 on up for that DM. Why doesn't the DM get that fee? If a DM takes four divers down at say $15 a head, he or she can make $60 for one-half day of work (2 tank dive). Do the DM's not get this money? If it goes to the dive op, why? I don't mind tipping but I'd rather pay the person doing the work.

There may have been some loosey-goosey terminology here, but there's a few ways this can work, and HOW it works depends on the boat and the area.

In many places there's a distinction between "boat crew" responsibilities and "DM responsibilities" though they are often the same people.

- boat crew manages "the boat" part of the trip, getting on/off, tieing in to wreck, etc
- DMs might handle dive briefings and such

Within the DM specific duties there can be further difference between "general DM duties" of dive briefing, checking divers in/out etc and "we have DMs in the water, follow 'em if you like" and "your own personal DM-guided dive."

Here in NJ, while the boat crew members tend to be DMs and Instructors, we aren't acting as DMs per se when we are crew. From a legal standpoint, NJ dive boats are a ride out to the wreck. We don't plan your dive, we don't lead your dive, we don't dive your dive.

The boats here aren't owned by or officially affiliated with dive shops, but most of our trips are chartered by shops. You book your spot through the shop that has that day's trip. We provide the boat, the captain, and the crew to run the boat. The shop provides DMs or Instructors as needed for leading the group and/or individual "rent-a-DMs" for folks who want their own DM with them. Works well for both the crew and the DMs. Crew handles the boat and related logistics without being distracted. The DMs/Instructors can focus on their divers and the dives without having to worry about the boat.

So the way it works out on the Gypsy Blood on any given charter is that you'll likely have a captain and three crew members running the boat and two DMs from the shop running the charter. With a load of 15-18 divers that better than a 3-1 ratio, and ensures that you will get as much (or as little) attention as you need from great people dedicated to making sure you have a fun, safe trip.

As to how the various DMs are compensated, that depends on their arrangement with the specific shop.

 

[Stu S.]

In the US, the tipping sytem is here to stay. The first guys I saw that were like a dive master were in the Bahamas. Those young men were called "guides". This was in the 1970's. People liked the idea, as it was rather like having a caddy for golfing. (The caddy may also be a better golfer than the player.) There was typically one "guide" per boat.

In the Bahamas, you are expected to tip everybody... plenty, including the guy who hands you a paper towel in the Men's room. The guide concept seemed agreeable to tourists, and since it did not cost the captain anything, it caught on.

It seems that the guide or divemaster idea did not hit the Eastern US until the 1980's. Many divers were accustomed to tipping the guide and continued to do so in the US.

So, it is the Bahamian way of making a buck.

 

[almitywife]

....It seems that the guide or divemaster idea did not hit the Eastern US until the 1980's. Many divers were accustomed to tipping the guide and continued to do so in the US.......

FairyBasslet told me last month that on her GBR trip, "tips" were actually written on the price board listing... if i was there they would have gotten a gob full from me aboot it (this is australia-we dont tip!)

Tipping is happening here because those in the tourist service industry have figured out that you guys automatically pull money out for tipping so they have decided to go with the program

i would be the most hated person on a trip as i wont tip - i figured ive already spent enough money on the flights and boats and diving plus everything else, im not going to pay $??? per tank on top of that (especially as i do between 20 & 30 dives per trip, thats a heck of alot of money!)

 

[caymaniac]

FairyBasslet told me last month that on her GBR trip, "tips" were actually written on the price board listing... if i was there they would have gotten a gob full from me aboot it (this is australia-we dont tip!)

Tipping is happening here because those in the tourist service industry have figured out that you guys automatically pull money out for tipping so they have decided to go with the program

i would be the most hated person on a trip as i wont tip - i figured ive already spent enough money on the flights and boats and diving plus everything else, im not going to pay $??? per tank on top of that (especially as i do between 20 & 30 dives per trip, thats a heck of alot of money!)

Please keep it that way...I don't really like the tipping part of our culture, your way is much better. Yes, I've tipped when I've been on dive trips, but personally I think like you...I've spent enough getting there and on the liveaboard/land based diving already.

 

[RJP]

i would be the most hated person on a trip as i wont tip - i figured ive already spent enough money on the flights and boats and diving plus everything else, im not going to pay $??? per tank on top of that (especially as i do between 20 & 30 dives per trip, thats a heck of alot of money!)

I can understand coming from someplace where they don't have tipping, and not liking the idea of tipping because you're not accustomed to it or that even you just don't agree with the idea at all. But the fact that "this isn't how we do it at home" shouldn't necessarily mean "so I'm not doing it here."

We don't have a GST here in the US, so does that mean that I shouldn't pay it when travel to Sydney? When I'm in Britain, should I not pay the 10% service charge added to my restaurant check, since "that's not how we do it at home."

You can dislike it all you want, but don't you think you oughta follow the "local custom" in terms of what you are charged for things?

If you answered NO...if you came to the US and rented a car, would you pay AU$1.50/liter for petrol since that's what you pay at home? (That would work out to US$5.06/gallon when the current cost here is about $3.00.)

Better yet, next time I rent a car in Sydney, can you tell me where I can fill the tank for AU$0.89/litre? I figure I spent all that money for plane tickets, and hotel, and renting the car, etc and AU$1.50/liter is a heck of alot of money!

I suppose the good news would be that a US$10 tip would only be AU$8.80 for you.

 

[Kamchatka]

FairyBasslet told me last month that on her GBR trip, "tips" were actually written on the price board listing... if i was there they would have gotten a gob full from me aboot it (this is australia-we dont tip!)

Tipping is happening here because those in the tourist service industry have figured out that you guys automatically pull money out for tipping so they have decided to go with the program

i would be the most hated person on a trip as i wont tip - i figured ive already spent enough money on the flights and boats and diving plus everything else, im not going to pay $??? per tank on top of that (especially as i do between 20 & 30 dives per trip, thats a heck of alot of money!)

almitywife – you’re alrite
Here in New Jersey socialism and welfare is rampant. If a person wants to make their services (to clarify: talking diving here, not waiting) available for tips, fine, but don’t expect me to subsidize them for an alleged “service” I neither want or use. If they, one day, persuade the boat owner to pay them a wage, and the boat owner passes this cost on to me I’ll decide whether or not to dive with them. Of course, if/when that day comes the DM had better get my coffee order right!
__________________

 

[almitywife]

I can understand coming from someplace where they don't have tipping, and not liking the idea of tipping because you're not accustomed to it or that even you just don't agree with the idea at all. But the fact that "this isn't how we do it at home" shouldn't necessarily mean "so I'm not doing it here."

We don't have a GST here in the US, so does that mean that I shouldn't pay it when travel to Sydney? When I'm in Britain, should I not pay the 10% service charge added to my restaurant check, since "that's not how we do it at home."

You can dislike it all you want, but don't you think you oughta follow the "local custom" in terms of what you are charged for things?

If you answered NO...if you came to the US and rented a car, would you pay AU$1.50/liter for petrol since that's what you pay at home? (That would work out to US$5.06/gallon when the current cost here is about $3.00.)

Better yet, next time I rent a car in Sydney, can you tell me where I can fill the tank for AU$0.89/litre? I figure I spent all that money for plane tickets, and hotel, and renting the car, etc and AU$1.50/liter is a heck of alot of money!

I suppose the good news would be that a US$10 tip would only be AU$8.80 for you.

1. we have GST, you have sales tax i believe
2. the cost of fuel and taxes are NOT "local customs" but in fact set by supply and demand, purchase price, profit and govt taxes and is non negotiable.

tipping on the other hand is set by a 'feel good factor' and what you 'think is the right thing to do', so its ultimately up to the individual and even when i travel in the US i dont tip because someone else feels i have to

you dont get a buck for opening a door for me at the hotel, you wont get a buck for driving me to the airport and as i bring my own gear, put it together, clean it, get myself off and on the boat and i dont eat or drink a thing while on the boat (i even bring my own bottled water) ect you wont get $10 from me just for the fact that i dived on the boat that you are dm'ing on.

i already paid good (and not little) money for the trip, i paid for the tank and weight, a dive brief and im not responsible for subsidizing your career choices

edit: and no, a $10US tip would be approx $12AUD for me

 

[Scotttyd]

As a new diver I appreciate this info. I$99 for a two tank shore dive in Maui, who gets the money? I know there are some costs to the tanks and airfills/overhead, but those are minimal. Does this money not go to the DM?
In a boat dive I would assume the cost different compared to a shore dive is the costs associated with the boat/gas used.

But I can share two different experiences I had and what I feel, let me know if I am wrong,

I went on a boat dive in the US. First, the boat left 2.5 hours late with no notice (and now it is >100 and miserable). The "divemaster" only set up my tanks. He did not guide me, he just said, there is the rope, go on. This was my first real dive outside of the classroom and was very disappointing. The received minimal tip.

Trip #2 In Belieze, our guides picked us up at the Cruise Ship, took care of all of our tanks, even put our fins on our feet. He guided us around the reef, even took time to find a moray eel. He brought food with $25 tip.

I believe in tipping good service, but I never quite new the "standard" tip.

thanks

 

[caymaniac]

I can understand coming from someplace where they don't have tipping, and not liking the idea of tipping because you're not accustomed to it or that even you just don't agree with the idea at all. But the fact that "this isn't how we do it at home" shouldn't necessarily mean "so I'm not doing it here."

We don't have a GST here in the US, so does that mean that I shouldn't pay it when travel to Sydney? When I'm in Britain, should I not pay the 10% service charge added to my restaurant check, since "that's not how we do it at home."

You can dislike it all you want, but don't you think you oughta follow the "local custom" in terms of what you are charged for things?

If you answered NO...if you came to the US and rented a car, would you pay AU$1.50/liter for petrol since that's what you pay at home? (That would work out to US$5.06/gallon when the current cost here is about $3.00.)

Better yet, next time I rent a car in Sydney, can you tell me where I can fill the tank for AU$0.89/litre? I figure I spent all that money for plane tickets, and hotel, and renting the car, etc and AU$1.50/liter is a heck of alot of money!

I suppose the good news would be that a US$10 tip would only be AU$8.80 for you.

You have given your opinion and others have given theirs. You are trying to force your way of doing business on other divers as well as tell them that it is done this way in the U.S., I disagree. I think you have an arrogant attitude problem, I would never dive with your op. if they demanded and expected a certain amount of money for a dive tip. A tip is for service beyond what is normal business and that is all it is. If you are trying to make a living and are having a hard time doing so because tips are not what YOU expect them to be... I think I can understand why.

 

[RJP]

2. the cost of fuel and taxes are NOT "local customs" but in fact set by supply and demand, purchase price, profit and govt taxes and is non negotiable.

OK, but can I at least drive on the right side of the road next time I'm in Sydney?



But seriously, don't you see that the "local custom" of tipping in the US is in fact fundamentally determined "by supply and demand, purchase price, profit and govt taxes" as much as it is "local custom"? These are economic realities that are intertwined with tipping in the service industry in the US no less than are the cost of fuel or local taxes. Point of fact is that "tipping" in the US accounts for upwards of US$20billion in personal income in the US economy. Ignoring that reality "because I'm not from here" is no less foolish than ignoring the exchange rate (as I did apparently) or trying to pay with foreign currency. It's really no less foolish than speaking English SLOWLY AND LOUDLY when speaking to a Parisian shopkeeper.

That fact that you don't WANT to tip is not the issue I'm discussing. No one ever wants to pay a HIGHER price for something. Just please don't base the decision not to tip on the fact that "we don't do that where I come from" without realizing that you may be diminishing someone's ability to earn a living when you apply the local custom of "where you're from" to the socio-economic realities that exist in a foreign country when you travel there. (I thought only us Yanks did that?) Also note the significant regressive nature of the impact of this behavior, given the typical demographic and socio-economic status of most people who rely on tips for a significant portion of their income.

I already paid good (and not little) money for the trip and im not responsible for subsidizing your career choices

If you are trying to make a living and are having a hard time doing so because tips are not what YOU expect them to be... I think I can understand why.

Your flawed assumption as to my motivation in this discussion is really causing you to miss the point. I'm simply highlighting some of the economic and social dynamics of the marketplace and pointing out the very real impact they have on "how things work." The fact that you might not like "how things work" doesn't mean that the dynamics don't exist.

The fact that some people choose to behave contrary to the generally accepted "social" customs for reasons that are purely "economic" is interesting to me. That many call for an end to this well understood social convention with complete disregard for the obvious fact that there would be a negative financial impact greater than the current "cost" of complying with "convention" calls into question their true underlying emotional motivators and barriers. (If you're looking for some light reading for your next surface interval, try Hammond & Keeney's work on the role of emotions in the complex heuristics that humans apply in decision making and how they cause people to make decisions that are clearly contrary to their own economic self interests.)

The idea that I'm harboring some sort of resentment over my own economic plight is the furthest thing from the truth. I've been fortunate enough to have spent the last twenty years or so allowing the boards of directors and shareholders of my various employers to "subsidize my career choice" to the point where I'm now able to DM on a dive boat in NJ for free as often as I like without worrying about tips.