Tipping....how much do you tip?

[RJP]

In fact, it is not that unusual for these professionals to provide free services in the context of an ongoing relationship. My accountant just last week answered several inquiries for me without billing me. And I have securities brokers on a daily basis execute trades for me for free..

If you think you are getting "free services" from anyone you need to get a better handle on the difference between "free" and "included in what you've already paid." I guarantee your accountant would be offended by the fact that you believe - much less EXPECT - that he's done anything for you "for free."

It sounds to me like Group 2 has accurately assessed the reality of the situation, and Group 1 is hoping to change the reality through entreaties on the SB.

Actually, people in Group 1 are most likely "merely naive" whereas the people in Group 2 are probably "simply *$%#@&s."

 

[in_cavediver]

For those who say it a cost you have to pay, then why is it optional? If its a cost, then advertise it as a cost and add it to the bill. For those who whine about it covering DM's cost or other expenses, well if you aren't getting what you want - then quit doing it!

To me, a tip is and should be a reward for service beyond what was contracted. I am an experienced diver an don't need hand holding. I don't want or expect it. If I should go somewhere where I want a guide, for whatever reason, I am willing to pay extra for it.

A charter contract to me lays out exactly what I am paying for. Why should I be expected to pay more than the agreed contract if I get exactly what the contract states?

 

[PvtStash]

For those who say it a cost you have to pay, then why is it optional? If its a cost, then advertise it as a cost and add it to the bill. For those who whine about it covering DM's cost or other expenses, well if you aren't getting what you want - then quit doing it!

To me, a tip is and should be a reward for service beyond what was contracted. I am an experienced diver an don't need hand holding. I don't want or expect it. If I should go somewhere where I want a guide, for whatever reason, I am willing to pay extra for it.

A charter contract to me lays out exactly what I am paying for. Why should I be expected to pay more than the agreed contract if I get exactly what the contract states?

Because "thats just the way it is" according to RJP's "reality" ... he believes you Havent actually paid for any DM service and holds your conscience hostage instead of taking it up with the person he Should be pissed at... his boss/captain.

 

[vladimir]

If you think you are getting "free services" from anyone you need to get a better handle on the difference between "free" and "included in what you've already paid."

So I can get a better handle on things, which category do divemasters fall into?

 

[vondo]

What about liveaboards ...where the cost of the "charter" is say $1500 to $1700 ??

Still 10 - 15% of the total cost ??????

Yup, the crew on that boat is paid very poorly with the expectation that they'll make it up on tips. But now instead of tipping 10% for a DM that pushes you off the boat, you're tipping 10-15% to your DM, the person who will fix your gear if you need help, your cook, your waiter, your bartender, your busboy, your maid, etc. For me, that's an easier sell even if the $$$ is a lot more.

I'm much more comfortable tipping the DM on a non-US dive where they'll dive with you, point out stuff if you want, etc., than tipping South Florida DM's that stay on the boat. I still tip the S.Fl. guys too, but view it as a "surcharge" rather than a "gratuity" for service rendered. I look on the usual 10% for a taxi driver the same way.

 

[divingtigger]

Even though this is off point of HOW MUCH to tip, I don't see that starting to tip new car salesmen is the answer to fair competition. I suspect, right or wrong, as long as someone is there, wanting and willing to sell that car at whatever little income, there will be no raises for salesmen. The same holds true for DMs.

Yes but if a new cars salesman does a good job I'll send him tons of business which is kinda like a tip

 

[ev780]

If you were "thinking" you'd realize you are 180 degrees out of phase.

When was the last time you expected a banker, lawyer, accountant, etc to do work for you without being paid?

You are right!! 100%! But that is not my problem. The market sets the rate for DM services not me. I paid for the trip which includes DM services. I am not a party to the negotiation between a DM and dive operator.

FTR, if a DM is friendly, runs a trip that allows customers to enjoy themselves, and looks like they are happy to have me around then they get a good tip out of me. I spent enough time in the service industry. However, the single file only, follow me, gods gift to diving types, who look like they would rather be somewhere else can hold their hand out until the cows come home and they will come up dry!!

It is not some sort of corporate welfare system.

 

[Drewski]

OK, I've stayed quiet through most of this thread, but now it's getting interesting...

Simple math is great, but let's talk simple economics:

DM's don't get paid because the marketplace says they don't have to. There's apparently an ample supply of people willing to "volunteer" and pick up what tips they can. The owner would have to be an idiot to pay more than he has to, especially more than ZERO.

Through this thread I think we can all agree on the fact that there are two groups of idiots in the dive community:

1.) Those who expect they will be fairly compensated for humping tanks and cleaning up puke for someone else

2.) Those who expect someone else to hump their tanks and clean up their puke for them without being fairly compensated.

The good news is those two groups comprise the extremes and the other 99.9% of people in the dive community "get it"

There's also a bunch of discussion concerning unions, which I won't quote.

First, RJP, a question. Does New Jersey law still require that ALL gas purchased at gas stations be pumped by an employed attendant and NOT the person driving the car (i.e., no "self serve" - it was like this last summer)?

If it does, do you TIP the guy who in the freezing cold, pouring rain or sweltering heat suffers through pumping gas into your car? If NOT, why NOT? And, if you do, is it 10 to 20% of your fuel cost, or just a couple of bucks?

As far as unions go, I'm thinking these guys still have a job BECAUSE of their union, huh? According to some posts in this thread, THEY make more money than DMs, after factoring out all of the unpaid "costs."

AND, I might add, the price of gas in New Jersey last summer was about 5 cents cheaper a gallon then in Virginia, where I have to pump my own.

This question leads to my second point: I would HOPE that the captain of a vessel who RELIES on the "dive crew" to do stuff would show a little more loyalty to such individuals because he SHOULD not because he HAS to.

When I ran a boat in the 80s, I used a mixture of "crew" and DMs to staff. The "crew" were deckhands that worked for tips and, in some cases, I paid them $20 if the tips were light. Many of these guys hung out at marinas or were working toward a master's license. I used ONE crew member on a 50 FT boat.

We used two types of DMs. "Pro" DMs always got $30/day, plus any tips. My "rule" for splitting tips was 70% DM, 30% crew. I always had ONE "Pro" DM on the boat, and he ran the dive. That included setting and pulling the hook, briefing the dive and tracking "ins" and "outs." Pro DMs ALWAYS got free shop air and FREE trips on off days if they wanted to go. On their off day trips, I would usually ask them to dive "new" equipment from the shop and "sell" it to other divers if they liked it. This was a VERY effective motivating AND sales technique and generally resulted in BOTH happy DMs and new shop customers.

The second type of DM was the DM "in training." They made what the DM gave them, no questions asked. These guys were certified DMs, but didn't always have the experience that we needed. They worked at the direction of the DM, but the DM was ALWAYS in charge. Again, DMs "in training" ALWAYS got free air and at least one free trip per month if seats were available. DMs "in training" became Pro DMs when I cleared them and when another Pro DM left or I needed more Pro DMs. Advancement was based on seniority. We also had a DM "guided dive" requirement for some divers, depending on certification and/or experience. The shop made this determination when someone signed up for a dive. The "DMs in training" who were already "cleared" got first shot at these and received $20 for "guiding" a dive of up to 4 people.

All DMs paid their own insurance.

Did we "ask" for crew tips? Sure, but we NEVER said the crew "works for tips." In my opinion, that just put nickel and dime pressure on customers. We didn't want that. Instead, we relied on OUTSTANDING customer service to motivate tipping.

So, I would tell you that the captain of any boat who does NOT look at the "big picture" in using DMs and crew, IS an IDIOT. It's BAD for business, makes for hard feelings and, most importantly, DECREASES the VALUE of your "brand." I want DMs and crew "talking" the shop or boat line, making customers happy and keeping stuff SAFE.

Maybe the better question here is if the captain of the boat you are "working" on doesn't help you out, why are you putting up with it?

 

[PvtStash]

we relied on OUTSTANDING customer service to motivate tipping.

Ding Ding Ding!

 

[Elinkameli]

I have worked as a DM on many boats. You always need to consider what the price of the trip costs and tip from there. Most DM's only get paid in tips and well all understand we aren't going to strike it rich in this field but working on a boat usually doesn't accomodate working another 2 jobs just to pay bills. $20 dollars is a good tip. Take into consideration that most boats require all the crew to split tips (this includes the Capt. too) and some companies even take 5% for what they call a "maintenance fund" which goes is split with the crew again when the boat is docked for repairs. (And they have to say ashore and do the repairs)