Tina Watson Death - The Full Story

[Mark Derail]

Thanks all - K_Girl for your POV, Kreed for reminding us of the human side, Michael for the "official" facts.

Now how about something productive? Doing something that would prevent this for occuring again?

Like petioning PADI to increase the number of dives from FOUR to FIVE, to be allowed to dive at certified depth of 30M in ocean, lakes & rivers, and have the fifth dive be validated by a different instructor.

Doing four quarry dives to just 12M/25' is OK for doing skills and overcoming panic with practice, w/o having to deal with salt water, waves, current and the additional equalization required for going to the 25M-30M range.

This would mimic the FQAS certification required in Quebec, Canada - implemented after too many DSD divers died over something easily mastered, like proper buoyancy, buddy breathing, ascent.

Honestly, how much more costly would it be to new divers?

Or, say you do your 4 dives in OW of 25', if you want to go deeper while being escorted by a dive op / boat op, that it would be registered by the instructor you "max depth" on the PADI website. To go deeper, you need a DM/Instructor that will "qualify" you deeper - to you "max" of 30M for PADI-OW.

Of course, this won't do anything for shore divers that rent tanks - but at least it be a required PADI law, that if not enforced and an accident appears, that dive op gets it PADI partnership "removed".

How many more deaths are required?

If this existed - I know of at least three "accidents" so far including this one, read here on ScubaBoard.com in the last 10 months or so - I really think the persons would NOT have died.

Doesn't PADI (and NAUI) have a responsibility to the diving community? Our whole dive family of four are DAN+ members.

Let's Rock The Boat.

 

[gcarter]

I had personal information that Watson was at her training sessions and yelling at her from a personal non-public source that I trust. I did not see any reporting about the trial that stated otherwise that the dive instructor testified that Watson was not at her training sessions, if you have the link to that report, I would be interested.

The case is over and I think it is useless to go over the Stutz information as I am not interested in trying to convict Watson of murder in the blog-es-sphere when that is clearly not going to happen in a court of law. My premise has always been that it should have gone to trial. The judge said there was not a prima facie case and I am going to accept that ruling. When I discussed this before that happened, I tried to talk about how a jury could potentially see all the information, and actually discussed it from both sides. Once the case was over, any analysis as to how the jury could intrepet the information is over for me. I will no longer participate in that discussion.

I do still think that Gabe Watson had major cuplability for the numerous mistakes he made that led to Tina's death because of his behavior as a controlling, manipulative and arrogant personality. Tina never would have gone scuba diving otherwise, let alone jumped into a 90-foot, strong current dive. She trusted Gabe Watson more than Wade Singleton and there was a reason for that. She and Watson were both offered the orientation dive twice, but refused both times. Watson ultimately convinced Tina that she didn't need anyone but him. There is no denying that fact.

But I think there can be a lesson learned here and acted upon to help protect future divers who face overbearing pressure to dive. I do think that certifying agencies can put together criteria that helps to weed out these kinds of situations and save lives. I personally think that the certifying agency had more culpability than the dive operator in Tina's case. Everytime I go diving, I sign a disclaimer that I understand the rules and the dangers of diving, that I am adequately trained and that I will listen carefully to the briefing. Apparently, dive ops in Australia try to go a little further to protect the divers with an orientation dive required under certain circumstances, but that is not the case in the U.S. And Gabe Watson was from the U.S. Here, we are basically told which way to go and it is up to you to get back. We don't have DM's or guides here unless you pay extra for one. If the dive op in Australia was operating under the same procedures practiced here in the U.S., you could not blame the dive op in this case. That would simply go away and that is why I think that argument basically goes nowhere in terms of the Watson case.

So if you want to protect divers worldwide, and not just in Australia, it really needs to start with the certifying agencies. Add a section to the health questionnaire about why someone wants to learn how to dive. Train instructors on what to look for and encourage instructors to tell someone they are not diving for the right reasons and refuse to certify. Most especially if they are having panic problems in the water. That person who doesn't get certified will more than likely, be grateful. In Tina's case, she most certainly expressed that she under extreme pressure to be certified to the DM which should be mentioned to the instructor. I don't recall if the question was asked whether or not the DM discussed it with the instructor. The DM apparently felt sorry for Tina because she was under pressure to be certified and he was trying to help her do that. In a situation like this, the instructor should have the right to say (and be trained to say) that they want to speak to the person who wants the diver to be certified. If they determine the potential diver really does not want to dive and are under too much pressure, they should refuse to certify. You can't control what each and every dive op does in each and every country. Really, this needs to be done by the certifying agency.

I want to clarify that I don't blame Tina's instructor or DM because I don't think that there are any standards set for this kind of thing. I'm saying that maybe there should be. If Tina's statement didn't mean anything to the DM, he would never have remembered as being significant and it would not have ever been mentioned. Most certainly something about Tina's statement stuck in his mind.

These are the kinds of discussions that I think will help to heal, do a better job and move on. But in order to that, you have to learn to identify and understand how to deal with personalities like Gabe Watson. Pretending he was not controlling, manipulative and arrogant, had basically little culpability in Tina's death and is really some kind of great guy doesn't get us there. Because he's not. We need to use him as the model in order to identify potential divers who are under too much pressure to learn how to dive.

There were statements made by both Tina and Watson that should not be overlooked and should raise a red flag. Tina's statement that she had to get certified or her boyfriend will kill her was a statement that should not be dismissed. Certainly, Tina did not think Watson was going to kill her, but it is a clear indication that she was under pressure to learn how to dive. At that point, there should have been further questions asked of both Tina and Watson. We can take a lesson from school shooting incidents that have been prevented because students and teachers were taught not to ignore and dismiss certain statements.

I would like to see Tina's family refocus their efforts in this area. Kreed - read the book "The Last Dive." You will see how close, personal and disfunctional relationships can actually be dangerous in diving. Tina should have never gone scuba diving. Help us to shed light on why she chose to do it against her own fear and desire and how it can be prevented from happening again in the future by setting new standards by the certifying agencies.

I think what your family has accomplished so far is that if someone does get the idea that murder-by-scuba is easy, they better think twice. I think dive ops and enforcement have also learned some valuable lessons in the preservation of evidence, not just in case of answering whether or not a scuba death is a murder, but in order to provide more answers for all scuba deaths. For instance, I think the position of the tank nozzle could have been key. That tank should have been set aside and thoroughly examined.

From the PADI medical form:

Behavioral: The diver’s mental capacity and emotional make-up
are important to safe diving. The student diver must have sufficient
learning abilities to grasp information presented to him by
his instructors, be able to safely plan and execute his own dives
and react to changes around him in the underwater environment.
The student’s motivation to learn and his ability to deal with
potentially dangerous situations are also crucial to safe scuba
diving.

Relative Risk Conditions

•Developmental delay
•History of drug or alcohol abuse
•History of previous psychotic episodes
•Use of psychotropic medications

Severe Risk Conditions

•Inappropriate motivation to dive – solely to please spouse,
partner or family member, to prove oneself in the face of
personal fears
•Claustrophobia and agoraphobia
•Active psychosis
•History of untreated panic disorder
•Drug or alcohol abuse

Now granted, that is from the Physician section, but in my mind that would - should - give an instructor grounds for asking for a medical if he suspects this is the case. Also, in the diver section, there is a question:

Behavioral health, mental or psychological problems (Panic attack, fear of
closed or open spaces)?

... that also, in my mind, gives an instructor the basis to push back. Even if the diver answered "no", if these are risk factors and an instructor observes them to be the case, IMHO it is their obligation to address the issue before considering issuing a cert.

 

[Ayisha]

...Post mortem CT scans also revealed sphenoidal and other sinus opacities, indicating descent whist unconscious but alive, and bilateral pneumothoraces.

So Tina was already unconscious during the descent, as has been the hypothesis all along.

BTW, it's not the "Gabe accusers" that have been keeping these threads running for the last year. It is the "Gabe supporters" with their never-ending repetitive soapbox speeches. It would be interesting to see a post count even of just the last month or two.

 

[Divedoggie]

So Tina was already unconscious during the descent, as has been the hypothesis all along.

BTW, it's not the "Gabe accusers" that have been keeping these threads running for the last year. It is the "Gabe supporters" with their never-ending repetitive soapbox speeches. It would be interesting to see a post count even of just the last month or two.

Ayisha, I am just going to borrow your quote to further the discussion. It is not intended to attack you or to be personal at all...

Tina was unconscious during the descent...and it looks like, alive during the ascent...

All of the posts on Scubaboard could never add up to equal the years of one sided propaganda flowing from the mainstream media.
As an advocate for Gabe's not being guilty and with the thrust of the press over the last 8 years trying to sensationalize the story by pulling on the public's heart strings, it has been compelling to repeat the explainable scenarios. The best science and the best evidence, along with the opinion of the courts, and the results of analysis from the best experts, has shown that there is another side to the story. It is compelling to tell and retell this newer side of the story.

As I have stated in many previous posts, adequate training is of the utmost importance. Attempting dives that are beyond one's training is dangerous and sometimes deadly. Abbreviated training, low minimum standards, along with dive op's shortcutting responsibilities can be a mixture for a toxic stew.

Now, my motivation is to encourage newer divers to pursue more complete training and to gain proper experience before attempting open water dives without a guide or DM and to enlighten people to the fact that C-Cards are not necessarily indicative of ability or experience.

I also feel that there is an opportunity for the feuding camps to lay the cards on the table and to begin some semblance of a healing process.
Part of that process may further open wounds, even among those who have been involved with posting thoughts on this story for years. But, I believe that continuing the discussion is healthy. MM's update on Dr. Edmond's latest findings is truly enlightening. It is surely an explanation as to why CPR was unsuccessful.

Some of the posts from those who are directly tied to the families involved are enlightening too. Even though they may consist of character attacks and hearsay, the posts show how deep the bad feelings run, and give light to why this story has lingered and lingered for so many years. Their arguments tend to be personal in nature and not based on the facts, especially the facts that are specific to diving and which actually have explanation. Those facts are worth repeating. Michael McFadyen's work is worth rereading until some bit of understanding starts to take root.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

From the PADI medical form:

Behavioral: The diver’s mental capacity and emotional make-up
are important to safe diving. The student diver must have sufficient
learning abilities to grasp information presented to him by
his instructors, be able to safely plan and execute his own dives
and react to changes around him in the underwater environment.
The student’s motivation to learn and his ability to deal with
potentially dangerous situations are also crucial to safe scuba
diving.

Relative Risk Conditions

•Developmental delay
•History of drug or alcohol abuse
•History of previous psychotic episodes
•Use of psychotropic medications

Severe Risk Conditions

•Inappropriate motivation to dive – solely to please spouse,
partner or family member, to prove oneself in the face of
personal fears
•Claustrophobia and agoraphobia
•Active psychosis
•History of untreated panic disorder
•Drug or alcohol abuse

Now granted, that is from the Physician section, but in my mind that would - should - give an instructor grounds for asking for a medical if he suspects this is the case. Also, in the diver section, there is a question:

Behavioral health, mental or psychological problems (Panic attack, fear of
closed or open spaces)?

... that also, in my mind, gives an instructor the basis to push back. Even if the diver answered "no", if these are risk factors and an instructor observes them to be the case, IMHO it is their obligation to address the issue before considering issuing a cert.

OMG... I shouldn't have passed the medical then. Overcoming my fear of the water was one reason I wanted to dive.. I also wanted to see the pretty fish and explore the new environment. Now the thing that scared me the most is the thing that relaxes me the most:doh: I am not however a person prone to panic...

Didn't I read that the trip to Australia was a graduation present to Gabe and Tina is the one who suggested they turn that into their honeymoon because she wanted to see the turtles? Didn't I also read that they did a week in Sydney to do the stuff Tina wanted to do before going on the dive portion? Man.. sounds pretty controlling to me

Note on Michael's blog where he points out that Tina's training would not have met the criteria to issue her with an OW certificate here in Australia!

I really don't understand them going to a Live-aboard without doing a dive in the ocean together. I remember some friends who came over... they were going to do the Live-aboard thing on the GBR. He was an experienced diver.. but she wasn't. They met up with us in Sydney and she did her firs ocean dive here in a carefully selected site to work out her weights and equipment. We did 3 or 4 shore dives with them before they went on to the Live-aboard. When they got up on the GBR she took her AOW course.. they had a great time!

In the end it is about taking responsibility for your choices as an adult. A lot of people made some bad choices in this situation... the price to Tina was her life:crying2: The price to Gabe.. His life for 8 1/5 years, his reputation and I imagine some nightmares he will never get over. To the Thomas camp... pain, anger frustration and I imagine the $33,000 from Tina's insurance didn't cover all of their costs in this fight. The Watson camp pain, frustration and a mountain of legal bills. No winners anywhere!

I guess I am dreaming but I am still hoping people learn from this. I am still hoping that reading this might help people look at the big picture, take off the blinders see the facts with clearer eyes. That won't happen if we allow our emotions to get too invested in this.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

All of the posts on Scubaboard could never add up to equal the years of one sided propaganda flowing from the mainstream media.
As an advocate for Gabe's not being guilty and with the thrust of the press over the last 8 years trying to sensationalize the story by pulling on the public's heart strings, it has been compelling to repeat the explainable scenarios. The best science and the best evidence, along with the opinion of the courts, and the results of analysis from the best experts, has shown that there is another side to the story. It is compelling to tell and retell this newer side of the story.

As I have stated in many previous posts, adequate training is of the utmost importance. Attempting dives that are beyond one's training is dangerous and sometimes deadly. Abbreviated training, low minimum standards, along with dive op's shortcutting responsibilities can be a mixture for a toxic stew.

Now, my motivation is to encourage newer divers to pursue more complete training and to gain proper experience before attempting open water dives without a guide or DM and to enlighten people to the fact that C-Cards are not necessarily indicative of ability or experience.

I also feel that there is an opportunity for the feuding camps to lay the cards on the table and to begin some semblance of a healing process.
Part of that process may further open wounds, even among those who have been involved with posting thoughts on this story for years. But, I believe that continuing the discussion is healthy. MM's update on Dr. Edmond's latest findings is truly enlightening. It is surely an explanation as to why CPR was unsuccessful.

Some of the posts from those who are directly tied to the families involved are enlightening too. Even though they may consist of character attacks and hearsay, the posts show how deep the bad feelings run, and give light to why this story has lingered and lingered for so many years. Their arguments tend to be personal in nature and not based on the facts, especially the facts that are specific to diving and which actually have explanation. Those facts are worth repeating. Michael McFadyen's work is worth rereading until some bit of understanding starts to take root.

Man did you hit the nail on the head here. Liking this post was just not enough. I can not agree more with your comments! Thank you!

 

[Lookmanohands]

Kgirl: Did I read correctly what you typed? That because no news agency reported Gabe and Tina's dive instructor saying on the stand under oath that Gabe was NOT present during Tina's training sessions you are going to believe and state as a fact that Gabe was present and yelling at her? You don't have to tell the class who told you this info, your "source" so to speak. But could you please give the name of the person from Tina's dive class that corroborated this (the witness to the event)? I know the answer is "no" and we all know why but I will give you the benefit of the doubt to prove me wrong and make yourself not look so foolish. I eagerly await your response with the name of the person who witnessed this so we can double check it with testimony from the inquest. I could actually get you Gabe and Tina's dive instructors phone number if you would like to call him personally.

Just wanted to point out a few of the obvious: First of all, southern girls don't have hobbies that guys can partake in without getting made fun of. Unless its drinking. And believe me, Tina could drink Gabe under the table. You don't think he went out on her off nights until last call cause he loves hanging out in smokey smelly bars do you? No, he did it because she enjoyed it. If he had his choice he would have people over and grill out and drink at home. I guess she was controlling huh?

Gabe took Tina to see an opera at the Sydney Opera House. So that is something else that was of interest to Tina that Gabe did to please her. And yes it could have been dangerous. He was a guy going to see an opera to please his wife. He very easily could have died from boredom. Do you realize how many of us have caught hell from our wives for never having done something that romantic?

She used to also make him go to the Bham Art Museum with her. He would bitch like hell about it afterwards to us. But did he complain to her about it? Nope, he smiled, acted like he was interested and just rolled with it. Why, because he wanted to do something that she enjoyed.

I make my wife go deer hunting with me once a year. She hates it, but she still goes. It could be dangerous. She could die in a hunting accident, gun mishap or get gored by a deer. Would it be my fault if she died?

And here is my last one before I go do some work for a change this week. Stupid people taking spring break vacation making me have to pick up their slack.
Kim, Gabe's wife had never been fishing before they got together. He took her to see if she would like it. To see if there was some type of outdoor activity the both of them could enjoy. And guess what? She enjoys fishing now. I would love to know what Kims response would have been if someone had asked her what she thought about fishing before she ever tried it. Wonder if it would have been similar to what others claim Tina said about diving before she really got to experience it? "I hate it, I would never do anything like that, that's so icky blah blah etc etc etc."

How would you enforce your make the dive partner talk to the dive instructor if someone is getting certified because a loved on is certified? Would we do that with all hobbies that require a license? Hunting fishing boating etc? Would state wildlife agencies have to interview wives who were purchasing a hunting or fishing license to participate with their spouse?

 

[Mark Derail]

Thx Divedoggie.

Nobody likes my suggestion about getting PADI to improve the cert process?

:SAD PUPPY: <-- should be an icon for this

 

[boulderjohn]

Or, say you do your 4 dives in OW of 25', if you want to go deeper while being escorted by a dive op / boat op, that it would be registered by the instructor you "max depth" on the PADI website. To go deeper, you need a DM/Instructor that will "qualify" you deeper - to you "max" of 30M for PADI-OW.

Something like that is already in place. New divers are not supposed to dive beyond their training limit (60 feet) until they complete the Advanced course, which includes a deep dive requirement. See the next note for more.

Of course, this won't do anything for shore divers that rent tanks - but at least it be a required PADI law, that if not enforced and an accident appears, that dive op gets it PADI partnership "removed".

There is no such thing as PADI law. PADI is one of dozens of agencies that certify divers to dive at beginning levels and beyond, should the diver choose to get that training. It is up to a dive operator and local laws to determine and enforce such things locally, though, and what they do is up to them. On a liveaboard trip like this, it is possible that the divers on board would be certified by 5-6 different agencies, each with their own policies. In many places, you will find that individual operators have their own rules related to such limits. For example, most operators will not let you dive the Spiegel Grove in Florida unless you have advanced certification. Others, however, will allow anyone to do it. The agencies have no legal way to do anything about this.

If this existed - I know of at least three "accidents" so far including this one, read here on ScubaBoard.com in the last 10 months or so - I really think the persons would NOT have died.

Could you link to the ones you feel were caused by improper initial training?

Doesn't PADI (and NAUI) have a responsibility to the diving community?

Why single out these two agencies out of the dozens that exist? Neither one had any involvement in this case. Both Gabe and Tina were certified by NASDS, which is now SSI.

Our whole dive family of four are DAN+ members.

Great. That means you have easy access to the annual DAN report that includes a study of dive fatalities. If you want to rock the boat, go through the reports of the last few years and identify the ones caused by improper initial training. A quicker way would be to read their last analysis of the causes of dive fatalities, which was done in conjunction with PADI. The results will probably surprise you.

Finally, when you analyze student performance, how do you distinguish between the agency's standards and the work of an individual instructor? After a career in public education, I will assure you that there are stellar school teachers out there, and there are incompetent school teachers out there. Both the stellar teachers and the incompetent teachers graduated from extensive college programs designed to make them fully competent. Each went through student teaching. Each was certified by a state organization. Each is required to complete continued education to maintain certification. Each is overseen by a continual evaluation process determined to make sure they are doing a good job. Despite all of this, there are fully incompetent teachers out there turning out students with poor performance. How can a dive agency do any better?

From what I read of their instruction, I cannot say a lot of good things about their particular instructor.

 

[Mark Derail]

Thanks John, I only knew of PADI until a few months ago.

I just remember reading lots of stories of divers panicking on the way down with no control - their first "deep" dive outside of the four cert dives. If a fifth dive to the max of the cert level, perform 3 skills there including showing neutral buoyancy, would have prevented their deaths.

IOW, for beginners only.

Examples
1) Tina kept going down
2) Newly certified diver in Ontario last fall disappeared when the DM went back up, telling the new diver to stay put and he didn't or couldn't.
Others that are hearsay, overweighted divers usually, that might be OK with 20 lbs in cold water and thick wetsuits (even though it's still probably too much).