DIR- GUE Thoughts on Halcyon Symbios as an entry point into CCR diving vs a specialized tool?

[steinbil]

Primary question: Where does the Halcyon Symbios fit in the GUE training program and eco-system?
From my perspective as an inexperienced OC-only diver, there are two different scenarios/applications I can think of that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1. A specialized tool for cave exploration
2. An entry point into CCR diving

So which do you think GUE is going for?
- Is it going to be paired with the new CCR Fundamentals class as an entry point into the GUE CCR progression?
- Or be a specialized tool in a more advanced class? More like the RB80 or Cave sidemount?
- A combination?
- Something different that I've missed?

And do you think they are right or wrong to do it, and why?
I'm not looking for bashing in this thread, I just find it interesting to hear arguments for and against this development, by people with more experience then myself, so that I can learn from it and understand the issue better. And I have noticed that people in the community are either excited or sceptical/confused about this.

Bonus questions:
Where/how does it fit next to the JJ? Where do they overlap and where do they not? Is mixed CCR team diving (JJ + Symbios) a thing, or does it compromise the standardized equipment philosophy? Would the symbios be better or worse in a mixed team (OC/CCR)?


-----My wall-of-text ramblings below, feel free to skip, unless you want to educate me on my lack of understanding-----
Re. point 1: I can imagine there are advantages in terms of logistics with hard to reach caves/sumps, and in terms of removing the unit to pass through restrictions. Maybe also as backup/staged/BOB etc. These things are obviously way above my pay grade, so I don't presume to understand the ins and outs of this use, and from what I've seen other units do fulfill a lot of these roles, and maybe much better for all I know - like the Gemini, RB80 etc.

Re. point 2: for a diver with absolutely no experience with CCRs like myself, this actually sounds quite appealing. The thought of keeping my OC rig that I'm very familiar and comfortable with, and adding a CM unit to it to learn CCR diving with a goal of slowly expanding bottom times and depths seems intuitively like a nice progression, compared to switching to a JJ. Now, I'm personally several years off any possible transition to a CCR, so this is primarily for my curiosity, but also a part of researching/thinking about what my future might hold. So with my beginner mind, I see some advantages:
- Familiarity with the OC part of the rig, and possibly easier(?) integration into mixed team diving?
- Travel-friendly unit: if I go down the CCR route, I hope to travel to use it both in caves and ocean, and the JJ seems harder to travel with
- Less bottles/gear total: easy to switch between diving CC and OC, using my doubles for both
It seems less advantageous for very deep ocean dives, but realistically I'm not sure how much of that I'll be doing at any point, if ever. Maybe that would change over time, but while again if at that point getting another unit is needed/beneficial, maybe it shouldn't decide what would be a better first unit? Or maybe my intuition is off, and I should stick to the mantra of "beginning with the end in mind". Or maybe I shouldn't even switch to CCR if I'm not planning on doing those dives in the first place. I will obviously learn a lot more and probably have a better perspective by the time I'm considering actually doing CCR training. But again, for someone wanting to expand the ability to do more and longer dives in the 40-70m range, travel, dive mixed teams, dive caves - would something like the Symbios maybe be a pretty good place to start?
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ETA: Moved the disclaimers to the bottom...
Disclaimer 1: Obviously the Halcyon Symbios is not available yet, not passed CE tests yet and GUE hasn't launched a training program for it yet, but judging by what I've seen, heard and read from GUE sources – like the latest Quest issue – it seems like it's only a matter of time

Disclaimer 2: I know there are several threads about CM CCR vs BM CCR etc, but I am interested in hearing more specifically about how this fits into the GUE/DIR philosophy of diving and dive training, how you think it will and should (or not) be included, and I know there are some people on SB that could shed some light on this topic.

PS.
Maybe @johnkendall want to share some thoughts on this, if you have anything you could share at this point..?

 

[rjack321]

Primary question: Where does the Halcyon Symbios fit in the GUE training program and eco-system?
From my perspective as an inexperienced OC-only diver, there are two different scenarios/applications I can think of that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1. A specialized tool for cave exploration
2. An entry point into CCR diving

So which do you think GUE is going for?
- Is it going to be paired with the new CCR Fundamentals class as an entry point into the GUE CCR progression?
- Or be a specialized tool in a more advanced class? More like the RB80 or Cave sidemount?

It's a specialized tool for (formerly OC) sidemount divers pushing sidemount caves.

 

[PfcAJ]

It’s a specialized tool for GUE instructor revenue.

 

[AJ]

My take: it does not fit the GUE standard of D12's as far as I can see (too much clutter on the chest with a already relativly complex config with D12 and stages). Even the JJ is configured in a way that it resembles a doubles config which seems to me seems to be the GUE gold standard. So I guess it will be a specialized add on for GUE sidemount or it won't fit in the GUE curriculum at all.

If I were to buy a symbios it would as a travel rebreather (with sidemount or single tank backmount which is great) or as backup rebreather to my JJ (which is also great to reduce bailout tanks). Don't see many other advantages for a chest mount rebreather specifcally. I mean, in the end it's just a rebreather in a different location.

 

[iliketopetsharks]

Have a look at Quest magazine issue feb. 2025. A lot of your questions will be answered.

 

[RedSix]

Have a look at Quest magazine issue feb. 2025. A lot of your questions will be answered.

Big 'disadvantage' of Quest is, that you need to be GUE member to be able to get it. No (legal) other way.
Altough 39$ is not a big thing, but there might be other reasons to be not a member. Might it be that the current tack doesn't fit your expectations of GUE.

 

[steinbil]

Have a look at Quest magazine issue feb. 2025. A lot of your questions will be answered.

That was actually what prompted this post. Here are some snippets from the Quest article:
"...this rebreather meets the needs of "tecreational" and hardcore technical divers..."
"The chestmount design is ideal for new rebreather divers...for a smoother learning curve"
"Major training organizations, including GUE, will offer Symbios training..."
"...an appealing alternative to traditional backmounted systems..."
"[GUE]...is now moving to include it as an option for GUE rebreather training..."

What I take from reading that, is that the training council in GUE sees this as a possible alternative to the JJ in their CCR program - CCR Fundamentals, CCR Tech etc - meaning you could choose which unit to train on, and possibly also as a tool for cave exploration.

However, some GUE divers, instructors and posters on SB seem to be less convinced, or more critical or confused about what it really is for, and whether the reasoning is sound. Which is why I was hoping to hear more from both the critical and positive voices here, to understand the reasoning from both sides - since I am not experienced/knowledgeable enough to form an intelligent opinion on the matter at this point. I would like to understand more about why the Symbios would be a better/worse option for a beginning CCR diver, and also what it would mean for GUE and the standardization of equipment to offer similar classes on different units.

@rjack321 and @PfcAJ give good examples of the kinds of things I've heard also from other sources, which makes me interested in hearing more about the reasoning.

 

[jale]

Hi
I got the feeling that the wheel is going to be reinvented...

 

[steinbil]

It's a specialized tool for (formerly OC) sidemount divers pushing sidemount caves.

Is that your opinion on what it should be or what GUE will offer? The Quest article @iliketopetsharks references seems to indicate that they will offer it as a starting point for CCR training. Do you think that would be a mistake? And why?

 

[steinbil]

It’s a specialized tool for GUE instructor revenue.

I've heard this sentiment from others as well, with more or less degree of "tongue-in-cheek".

From my perspective as a GUE diver very far removed from the inner workings of the organization, it does seem like there is a push within GUE for making the agency more approachable/relevant for more divers - whether that is a good or bad thing overall, I'm not in a position to have any strong opinions on. It would clearly be beneficial for GUE instructors to have more students. Seeing the introduction of a CM rebreather in that light, I don't think it's a stretch to say that at the very least it's part of the reasoning. However, is that all? Do you really think the primary motivation for doing this is to create revenue for the instructors? Or do you just think that whatever other reasoning they have is flawed?