This is criminal...

[Ana]

...if a business wants to get into the COMMERCIAL diving market, they must play by the rules. For commercial diving, the rules are much different than those of the recreational community. Minimum standards dictate the number of personnel required on scene, the level of diver training required ( COMMERCIAL diver training ), minimum equipment, gas supply, surface support needs, etc., etc.

Legitimate commercial diving contractors invest big money in preparing to do u/w work & they get really p.o'd when some fly-by-night shyster happens along with two sets of scuba gear & wet-behind-the-ears child-divers, then undercuts the bidding process to the point of ludicrousness. To say nothing of risking the safety of undoubtedly very naive diver-kids.

Regards,
D.S.D.

I invite you to take a look at your local DOT, you will be amaze at what many States are able to get away with.

After a couple of huge bridge accidents, the Feds wisely decided that it was a bit insane to have all these structures around the country with out some sort of maintenance. A bunch of structural engineers got together and decided it would be a good idea to give every structure that spans 20feet or more an in depth inspection. This inspection was to follow certain procedures and each element of the bridge would be rated according to its condition. They figured every 2 years for the top side (including splash zone) and no more than five years for the underwater elements.
I don't know about all the states when it comes to the underwater part, but I know about some. And just like some are a good example of underwater work (Virginia being great) there is also others that hide under the loop holes from the OSHA guidelines to brake even the basic commandments of commercial diving. They do this because: 1- the can and 2-they call their work scientific instead of commercial.

Of course when something happens the settlements are great, but the injury or death can not be erased. And it goes on, If you talk to OSHA they know it, they'll shake their head and say how crazy that is, and how they have talked to this head of the District or the other one.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense should see that OSHA regs about inland commercial diving should be the very minimum. Maybe for a starting company that may have limited funds but always with the goal of improving on those minimun requirenment.


For some reason every diver that changes a propeller considers him/herself a commercial diver, every Navy diver thinks of himself as more than a commercial diver, and similar with the search and rescue divers from the PD's. However not many of them (if any) has to stay at one location in X feet of water: assembling/cleaning/cuting/measuring/guiding a top side crane with a Xtons of steel ready to crush them.
Most of the above divers may be very good at what they do but they are mainly swimmers, they use the water as a roadway not as a job site.

I don't think there are enough deaths or injuries to make a change. Many times those incidents are reported with a lot of creativity. Some times you finish reading the report and you'd never know it happened underwater.

Do you know how this can be solved? I don't

 

[griffindm]

I was surprised to find that commercial diving is not a restricted occupation for minors under FLSA. That act lists 17 hazardous occupations that minors are not to work in. They include:

Manufacturing or storing explosives
Driving a motor vehicle and being an outside helper on a motor vehicle
Coal mining
Logging and sawmilling
Power-driven woodworking machines*
Exposure to radioactive substances and ionizing radiations
Power-driven hoisting equipment
Power-driven metal-forming, punching, and shearing machines*
Mining, other than coal mining
Meat-packing or processing (including power-driven meat slicing machines)
Power-driven bakery machines
Power-driven paper-products machines*
Manufacturing brick, tile, and related products
Power-driven circular saws, band saws, and guillotine shears*
Wrecking, demolition, and shipbreaking operations,
Roofing operations*
Excavation operations*

But not diving. I wonder why not?

 

[Ana]

I was surprised to find that commercial diving is not a restricted occupation for minors under FLSA. That act lists 17 hazardous occupations that minors are not to work in. They include:

Manufacturing or storing explosives
Driving a motor vehicle and being an outside helper on a motor vehicle
Coal mining
Logging and sawmilling
Power-driven woodworking machines*
Exposure to radioactive substances and ionizing radiations
Power-driven hoisting equipment
Power-driven metal-forming, punching, and shearing machines*
Mining, other than coal mining
Meat-packing or processing (including power-driven meat slicing machines)
Power-driven bakery machines
Power-driven paper-products machines*
Manufacturing brick, tile, and related products
Power-driven circular saws, band saws, and guillotine shears*
Wrecking, demolition, and shipbreaking operations,
Roofing operations*
Excavation operations*

But not diving. I wonder why not?

Because people in offices don't think of the incredible amount of stuff that needs to be accomplished under water.

What comes to mind when you hear commercial diving? an oil patch correct? Sure they are the big guys of the occupation but think about your average city. Maybe not in Arizona and NewMexico I don't know how dry theyare. I know east coast, Besides the well known waterways and inlets you have canals, ditches, pipes, seawalls, bridges, sewer systems, power plants.Not all the time underwater sometimes under crap (literally) The people you least think of, some times surveyors need to get underwater just for a particular project, what do they do? oh yeah, I know so and so has a tank I'll talk to him. After all is just 6 feet of water, sometimes even less, how bad can it be?

When people in general think of diving they think of either colorful reefs or the rough diver from the oil rigs. So why bother including diving in that list?

 

[FFMDiver]

In the USA OSHA and the Coast Guard regulate commercial diving.
Unfortunately many companies do not know or ignore the regulations.

I think they need to put in place a way to go after the company having the work done when they use contractors who do not follow the rules.

Maybe educating the insurance companies on the rules and potential liability when the rules are not followed would do more. Companies that are not afraid of OSHA still take notice when the insurance company speaks.

Unfortunately with the glories of privatization come non-transparency.
Public health & OSHA? You only get what your only willing to pay taxes for....

 

[mack50md]

Plenty of good points about business responsibility and Goverment responsibility but, whatever happened to parental responsibility? He was a minor. He had parent(s) (I hope) that had an obligation to know what this boy was doing and the hazards of doing it?

 

[DeepSeaDan]

I was surprised to find that commercial diving is not a restricted occupation for minors under FLSA. That act lists 17 hazardous occupations that minors are not to work in. They include:

Manufacturing or storing explosives
Driving a motor vehicle and being an outside helper on a motor vehicle
Coal mining
Logging and sawmilling
Power-driven woodworking machines*
Exposure to radioactive substances and ionizing radiations
Power-driven hoisting equipment
Power-driven metal-forming, punching, and shearing machines*
Mining, other than coal mining
Meat-packing or processing (including power-driven meat slicing machines)
Power-driven bakery machines
Power-driven paper-products machines*
Manufacturing brick, tile, and related products
Power-driven circular saws, band saws, and guillotine shears*
Wrecking, demolition, and shipbreaking operations,
Roofing operations*
Excavation operations*

But not diving. I wonder why not?

...no reputable deepsea diving school will allow a minor to enroll in a commercial diving program, & any reputable diving contractor will not employ an individual without a commercial diving school ticket.

D.S.D.

 

[DeepSeaDan]

I invite you to take a look at your local DOT, you will be amaze at what many States are able to get away with.

After a couple of huge bridge accidents, the Feds wisely decided that it was a bit insane to have all these structures around the country with out some sort of maintenance. A bunch of structural engineers got together and decided it would be a good idea to give every structure that spans 20feet or more an in depth inspection. This inspection was to follow certain procedures and each element of the bridge would be rated according to its condition. They figured every 2 years for the top side (including splash zone) and no more than five years for the underwater elements.
I don't know about all the states when it comes to the underwater part, but I know about some. And just like some are a good example of underwater work (Virginia being great) there is also others that hide under the loop holes from the OSHA guidelines to brake even the basic commandments of commercial diving. They do this because: 1- the can and 2-they call their work scientific instead of commercial.

Of course when something happens the settlements are great, but the injury or death can not be erased. And it goes on, If you talk to OSHA they know it, they'll shake their head and say how crazy that is, and how they have talked to this head of the District or the other one.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense should see that OSHA regs about inland commercial diving should be the very minimum. Maybe for a starting company that may have limited funds but always with the goal of improving on those minimun requirenment.


For some reason every diver that changes a propeller considers him/herself a commercial diver, every Navy diver thinks of himself as more than a commercial diver, and similar with the search and rescue divers from the PD's. However not many of them (if any) has to stay at one location in X feet of water: assembling/cleaning/cuting/measuring/guiding a top side crane with a Xtons of steel ready to crush them.
Most of the above divers may be very good at what they do but they are mainly swimmers, they use the water as a roadway not as a job site.

I don't think there are enough deaths or injuries to make a change. Many times those incidents are reported with a lot of creativity. Some times you finish reading the report and you'd never know it happened underwater.

Do you know how this can be solved? I don't

...so checking out my local state's DOT regs. is not an option, though I can speak to Canadian Provincial & Federal diving legislation.

Here in Ontario, we have four diving inspectors employed to enforce the diving regulations of the Province. If I were to witness diving operations in contravention of the regs., I would simply contact the minisrty & report the violation(s).

Our current legislation is largely the result of numerous injuries & fatalities in years past. While not a perfect system, the regulations enforcement has been key in mostly eliminating the small-timers from trying to winnow in on commercial dive jobs on a shoe string budget.

Education of the recreational diving community would significantly add to the effectiveness of the effort.

Regards,
D.S.D.

 

[VMarcHart]

DeepSeaDan.

Point taken, thank you, but let me ask you this. If it was an OSHA-regulated dive by an experienced and licensed commercial diver, would've you reacted similarly?

I agree with you that corporations, in their need to cut costs, are actually cutting way too many corners and hiring the first well-intended fool that walks in with a low bid. That's the criminal, indeed.

 

[Ana]

Ana - I'm a Canuck!

...so checking out my local state's DOT regs. is not an option, though I can speak to Canadian Provincial & Federal diving legislation.

Regards,
D.S.D.

That's right, sometimes I get caught up in the we are the world mentality. I was refering to the US Department of Transportation, at a federal and state levels.

There is no similar US agency (that I know) to the Canadian P & F diving legislation. There is OSHA, an agency that some employers think is just a small town in Michigan, but is actually Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
An inspector for this agency may be dealing with a restaurant accused of serving roaches as a side dish on Monday, a bricklayer that fell from a crappy scafold on Tuesday, then Thursday (after calling sick Wednesday) he goes to a little canal where a poor ###tard got injured while setting rip rap in and undermined seawall.

The US has ADC, Association of Diving Contractors, but this is not a government agency, I don't know how they got started, I guess they got sick of seeing people badly hurt. I believe they have a great deal of influence but only at big scale of course oil rigs, but to repair a little something? forget it. For sure very few employers know of their existence in Florida.

I don't want Big Brother messing with recreational diving, but when it comes to work they should be just as involved as they are with any other occupation.

 

[Ana]

DeepSeaDan.

Point taken, thank you, but let me ask you this. If it was an OSHA-regulated dive by an experienced and licensed commercial diver, would've you reacted similarly?

I agree with you that corporations, in their need to cut costs, are actually cutting way too many corners and hiring the first well-intended fool that walks in with a low bid. That's the criminal, indeed.

It is probably hard to say for sure if the accident could've happened with a regulated dive by a licensed commercial diver.
Things do happen even when you follow a proven procedure. We weren't there so we'll never know the exact circunstances, but it is reasonable to think that if the outfit doing the job was not aware of the age of their employee, they probably didn't have an stand by diver, an specific amount of people keeping track of the dive, and a few other little things that can be looked as an overkill many times.
So maybe the incident would've happened anyway, maybe that kid was destined for that day even if he stayed home playing Xbox, how can anyone know?