Thinking about doubles....

[LUBOLD8431]

Don't for get your Spare Air. Sounds like you're planning a tek dive so you should probably get the Nitrox Spare Air...

NO, dude, you got to get the new Trimix version Spare Air. They are the shivitz!!!!

www.spare-air.com/trimix_version

They also have a twin version Trimix spare air!!!

www.spare-air.com/twin

And, the long awaited DIR compatible Spare Air!!!!!

www.spare-air.com/DIR_approved

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Kraken]

Matt wrote:
You can train until you are blue in the face but when you first encounter an emergency there *will* be a spectrum of response from 'pissing your pants and freezing' to being a 'little surprised' prior to your response.

Boogie wrote:
What part of "If you're too stupid, paralyzed with fear or incompetent as to close down your isolation valve, then you don't belong in the water, much less with doubles" are you having a problem with?


You're both correct to an extent.
No one, regardless of how extensively he or she was trained, knows how one will respond in a true, honest to God, life threatening situation until it happens.

Matt, in my opinion, has a more realistic position in the matter.
Boogie, on the other hand, makes a valid point that the diver should be trained to respond to the given emergency.

It is the phrase "paralyzed with fear" that attracts my attention to this discussion of opposing diving philosophies.

I completed the United States Army Aviation School and received my bars and wings as an army helicopter pilot.
During my year of training we did countless forced landing practices.

I can asssure you that all of that practice all but flew out the door the first time I was shot down. As Matt indicated, it took a couple of seconds to recover my wits and longer to dry my pants, but I managed to get it to the ground without any fatalities. I had about 15 to 20 seconds to get things right.

I have yet, by the grace of God, to encounter a true emergency situation while diving, but I'm sure that, as in my example above, should it ever happen I will require a couple of seconds to identify the problem, mentally assess the situation, derive a solution and excute the accepted solution.

Unfortunately we don't train like the military and setup virtually real emergency scenarios. There are good reasons for that.

Each feels comfortable in his respective gear arrangement and, hopefully, is prepared to meet any emergency that may arise.

Is one set up of tanks "safer" than the other?

We have opinions, no empirical data or statistical information put forth that supports the hypothesis of either position.

 

[matt_unique]

Kracken - you hit the nail on the head with your flight training example. I am just a Private Pilot but I derive my understanding of real world reaction vs. tough guy nonsense from Boogie from a similar source. I practiced emergency procedures over and over and over again. Once during take off my engine began to fail. I was climbing out and at about 200' and there was not enough runway in front of me to jam a slip and put it down. I had a few seconds of shock before I reacted and safely landed the plane. Not my best landing - ha ha - can you say - bouncing ball - but a safe landing none the less. Next time it happens - I will be more ready from that experience but the first time it happens - as is my point in this thread from the start - you will be scared.

Another somewhat comical example. I had a buddy who was in the Army and was convinced that nothing I could do in a small plane could scare him. I conducted an emergency descent with him (throttle back and go into a dive as though to put out an engine fire) and he absolutely freaked out. The expression on his face was priceless.

Anyway back to the topic at hand - I dive doubles with manifold and isolator, I can reach all the valves, I practice valve drills, etc. The original question was about the differences between doubles and independent singles. There are certain advantages to each. I prefer doubles because I am confident I will reach my valves.

Boogie - at what time did I make a "personal attack" relative to your posts? Talk about seeing a spec in my eye and missing the plank in yours....I have had previous posts deleted when I told you what I think of you...nothing like that going on in this thread.

I'm done with this thread.

--Matt

 

[The Kraken]

Pax vobiscum . . .

 

[cornfed]

I have yet, by the grace of God, to encounter a true emergency situation while diving, but I'm sure that, as in my example above, should it ever happen I will require a couple of seconds to identify the problem, mentally assess the situation, derive a solution and excute the accepted solution.

There are two types of people in car wrecks. Those that stomp on the brakes and close their eyes and those who take a second or two to "identify the problem, mentally assess the situation, derive a solution and excute the accepted solution." When Boogie was talking about people who shouldn't dive, he was referring to the former. Does that make since?

 

[pescador775]

Don't argue with these guys, Boogie, they're going negative and are trying to raise hypotheticals which are defeatist in nature. Personally, I think that many of the redundant equipment features are unnecessary except for cave diving and extreme deep diving but there is no doubt in my mind that a manifolded twin set is potentially safer in any situation. However, one must assume that the diver is mentally and physically sound to begin with. PS: My friend 'Chubby' owns a Mooney. Diving, looping and rolling in that thing is like a fun ride at Kings Dominion. I draw the line at bungee jumping but each to his own. Well, I might do it over water, ouch!
Pesky

Matt - I'm not trolling, but if you wish to resort to personal attacks, that's your perogative.

I completely understand the difference between a manifold and independent doubles. Do you understand that with the isolator closed, you in essence have - gasp - independent doubles? But with an isolation manifold, you have all the benefits of independents, but without any of the detriments, such as losing access to half your gas if a reg craps out.

You claim manifolded doubles are bad, because people won't close the isolation valve.

What part of "If you're too stupid, paralyzed with fear or incompetent as to close down your isolation valve, then you don't belong in the water, much less with doubles" are you having a problem with?

I completely do not accept your "lowest common denominator" thinking. My thinking is even simpler - if you're that incompetent, stay on the boat or on the shoreline.

 

[The Kraken]

Cornfed,
Boogie's statement is perfectly clear to me.
Perhaps you missed the point of my response, no one knows if he or she is one of the "close the eyes" types or not until the actual emergency occurs.

 

[cornfed]

Perhaps you missed the point of my response, no one knows if he or she is one of the "close the eyes" types or not until the actual emergency occurs.

True, but some people are predisposed to close their eyes.

 

[simbrooks]

I am thinking that I am going to put off the purchase of a set of doubles for a while and just go with a single large steel tanks for now. If I don't go hog whild on the tanks them maybe if I am lucky my wife will let me get a drysuit sooner rather than later. A set of doubles definitely would have pushed that purchase back quite a bit.

I am thinking either a PST LP120 or an E8 119 for myself. They are essentially the same price that is really a factor. Are there any significant advantages with either one? Also, is there anything wrong with getting my wife an E7 80?

Beyond this wonderful car wreck/dive accident response thing, the guy was asking about tanks again - will try to deal with that, you guys deal with the independant and manifolded doubles for now.

Before getting the doubles a drysuit might be nice. As for the single tanks, the LP120 i have heard is a huge tank compared to the E8-119, which is also a little short for anyone over about 5'-8" (i know its way too short for me at 6'3"!). The 119 is pretty cheap, the E7-100 is a nice tank, essentially an AL80 size and a bit lighter for about the same price as the 119. The E7-120 is long for some folks (fine for me, but backlogged along with the E8-130) and more expensive. If you are short and dont mind a short tank the 119 might work, if you dont mind hauling a water heater the LP120 might work, for a good size try the 100. What is your SAC compared to your wife's? That might determine if her tank or yours would limit the dives - ie an 80 vs a 119 might be a huge difference, whereas 80 vs 100 not so bad. I was looking at 120's for me and 100's for my GF recently as that was a nice match, YMMV.

 

[cornfed]

Beyond this wonderful car wreck/dive accident response thing, the guy was asking about tanks again - will try to deal with that,

Fine, be that way...

I am thinking either a PST LP120 or an E8 119 for myself. They are essentially the same price that is really a factor. Are there any significant advantages with either one? Also, is there anything wrong with getting my wife an E7 80?

Why not grab some AL80s? They're much cheaper then steel tanks and you can double them up later if you want. You sound like you're pretty inexperienced so the money saved by getting AL instead of steel might be better spent on a dive trip, don't ya think?