Tonka..? Damn I miss those virulent posts. Those soothing (er I mean seething) rants. Where has he gone? SB is just not the same without him. He has a replacement though.
The truth of U-869
- Thread starter GLynch
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Tonka..? Damn I miss those virulent posts. Those soothing (er I mean seething) rants. Where has he gone? SB is just not the same without him. He has a replacement though.
TropicRat:
TropicRat...I didn't know this thread had been resurrected since I haven't been on SB recently.
I had to read back to find out what you were referring to r/t U-352....I found my post. My mention of the 352 was a typo. I was actually referring to the 869...Sorry about that. Definitely no question about the sinking of the U-352 by the USCG cutter Icarus.
Ben....I got my copy one day after you did. I am going to write Joe Porter and complain to him about sending my copy late
I read the first article this morning and the thing that stuck out in my mind was a reminder of the tremendous amount of obstacles there were to overcome regarding the identification. At the outset there were several other U-Boats that were candidates, each of which having to be eliminated as the actual U-Boat that was sunk. That was just the beginning.
I do not get Mr Gentile's news letter, so I was unaware he was still grinding that axe. Where did Tonka go by the way?
Another thing that the article reminded me of has to do with John Yurga. I have been guilty of this but I feel it is very important not to forget what great contribution John gave to the identification of the U-869.
As far as Gary Gentile. I still have a great deal of respect for him and his tremendous contribution to diving. One cannot deny that contribution. I do not have respect for him in the way he has treated John C., Richie and John Y. I still cannot understand why, when he has contributed so much to this industry, he sunk so low in the muck regarding the issue of U-869.
I do not know Richie or John Y., but I have been around John Chatterton enough to know that this man is a great person with a huge heart, and I am confident, had the shoe been on the other foot, that John...or Richie, or John Yurga would never have stooped so low. But I guess from hearing about this newsletter, that Mr. Gentile is at it again.
BTW...as a side note...In November at the Eurotek '08 technical dive conference, Wreck Diver Magazine received the "Best Publication Award." Congratulations Joe!!!
Rawls:
Thanks for the clarification, I suspected it could have been an error.
Thanks for the clarification, I suspected it could have been an error.
Buoyant1
Contributor
TropicRat...I didn't know this thread had been resurrected since I haven't been on SB recently.
I had to read back to find out what you were referring to r/t U-352....I found my post. My mention of the 352 was a typo. I was actually referring to the 869...Sorry about that. Definitely no question about the sinking of the U-352 by the USCG cutter Icarus.
Ben....I got my copy one day after you did. I am going to write Joe Porter and complain to him about sending my copy late
I read the first article this morning and the thing that stuck out in my mind was a reminder of the tremendous amount of obstacles there were to overcome regarding the identification. At the outset there were several other U-Boats that were candidates, each of which having to be eliminated as the actual U-Boat that was sunk. That was just the beginning.
I do not get Mr Gentile's news letter, so I was unaware he was still grinding that axe. Where did Tonka go by the way?
Another thing that the article reminded me of has to do with John Yurga. I have been guilty of this but I feel it is very important not to forget what great contribution John gave to the identification of the U-869.
As far as Gary Gentile. I still have a great deal of respect for him and his tremendous contribution to diving. One cannot deny that contribution. I do not have respect for him in the way he has treated John C., Richie and John Y. I still cannot understand why, when he has contributed so much to this industry, he sunk so low in the muck regarding the issue of U-869.
I do not know Richie or John Y., but I have been around John Chatterton enough to know that this man is a great person with a huge heart, and I am confident, had the shoe been on the other foot, that John...or Richie, or John Yurga would never have stooped so low. But I guess from hearing about this newsletter, that Mr. Gentile is at it again.
BTW...as a side note...In November at the Eurotek '08 technical dive conference, Wreck Diver Magazine received the "Best Publication Award." Congratulations Joe!!!
Well, "at it" again may not be the best phrase... still grasping at it may be better
...But he's been teasing now for about 6 months...his newsletters keep alluding to something, so, I guess we have to wait and see...btw...good to see ya back!
Buoyant1
Contributor
Ok, I guess we're getting what we've been "teased" about! I found a link to Gary G's latest on the Deco Stop:
<<SHIPWRECK HERESIES
This volume is a collection of short subjects that are controversial in nature.
Leading the contentions is a history of the Abandoned Shipwreck Act. In this chapter is the story of how the Act was passed by only two senators, who sneaked into the closed chamber in order to pass unfavorable legislation that could not have been passed by honest means.
Following this is an in-depth study of the U.S. destroyer Murphy: how the wreck was identified; how the Naval Criminal Investigative Service threatened to prosecute those who identified it; and how one diver’s bid for sole access to the site led to the unlawful introduction and secret passage of a bill that appropriated all sunken U.S. Navy craft anywhere in the world.
The book ends with a 70-page retrospection of Shadow Divers Exposed: what juvenile and irrational critiques were made against it, and by whom; how the truthfulness of the book has been vindicated; and how new evidence has established that the U-869 had been discovered and dived three years prior to events that were related in Shadow Divers: the greatest literary hoax in publishing history.
In between these extraordinary disquisitions are chapters on other shipwrecks that have created nationwide controversies: the Civil War ironclad Monitor, the Hamilton and Scourge (U.S. Navy warships from the War of 1812, and which are now controlled by the Canadian government), the treasure wrecks Brother Jonathan and El Cazador, and the World War One ocean liner Lusitania.
Also included is “The Stellwagen Bank Robbery,” a scathing review of NOAA’s illegal activities in the Stellwagen Bank National Marine Sanctuary: its refusal to release public information, its ambition to prevent public access to wreck sites, and its program to expand sanctuary boundaries (in particular, Thunder Bay, Stellwagen, and the Monitor – the latter to eventually encompass the entire Outer Banks, and all the U-boats and merchant vessels from all wars and all marine casualties).
This is a book that will rile your blood.
>>
For what it's worth!
<<SHIPWRECK HERESIES
This volume is a collection of short subjects that are controversial in nature.
Leading the contentions is a history of the Abandoned Shipwreck Act. In this chapter is the story of how the Act was passed by only two senators, who sneaked into the closed chamber in order to pass unfavorable legislation that could not have been passed by honest means.
Following this is an in-depth study of the U.S. destroyer Murphy: how the wreck was identified; how the Naval Criminal Investigative Service threatened to prosecute those who identified it; and how one diver’s bid for sole access to the site led to the unlawful introduction and secret passage of a bill that appropriated all sunken U.S. Navy craft anywhere in the world.
The book ends with a 70-page retrospection of Shadow Divers Exposed: what juvenile and irrational critiques were made against it, and by whom; how the truthfulness of the book has been vindicated; and how new evidence has established that the U-869 had been discovered and dived three years prior to events that were related in Shadow Divers: the greatest literary hoax in publishing history.
In between these extraordinary disquisitions are chapters on other shipwrecks that have created nationwide controversies: the Civil War ironclad Monitor, the Hamilton and Scourge (U.S. Navy warships from the War of 1812, and which are now controlled by the Canadian government), the treasure wrecks Brother Jonathan and El Cazador, and the World War One ocean liner Lusitania.
Also included is “The Stellwagen Bank Robbery,” a scathing review of NOAA’s illegal activities in the Stellwagen Bank National Marine Sanctuary: its refusal to release public information, its ambition to prevent public access to wreck sites, and its program to expand sanctuary boundaries (in particular, Thunder Bay, Stellwagen, and the Monitor – the latter to eventually encompass the entire Outer Banks, and all the U-boats and merchant vessels from all wars and all marine casualties).
This is a book that will rile your blood.
>>
For what it's worth!
Rawls and Devilfish are right on..I've got issues with a guy (Gary) who jumps on, as if he was part of the team...writes a book like he was there...and discredits those who were.
mike_s
Contributor
Good grief.... He's become "obessed" with this.....
I don't doubt it's possible that someone else dove the wreck 3 years before. I'm betting that Chatter/Kohler would even admit it's possible.
Hard to keep finding a U-boat on the ocean floor a secret though. So I doubt it.
Regardless, if they did find it three years earlier, then they didn't identify it. That's a lot about what SD is about.... the quest to identify the boat.
EDIT: Gentile has been whinning about this "new evidence" now for I'd guess at least a year. If he's really got anything, time for him to put his cards on the table.
Buoyant1
Contributor
Good grief.... He's become "obessed" with this.....
I don't doubt it's possible that someone else dove the wreck 3 years before. I'm betting that Chatter/Kohler would even admit it's possible.
Hard to keep finding a U-boat on the ocean floor a secret though. So I doubt it.
Regardless, if they did find it three years earlier, then they didn't identify it. That's a lot about what SD is about.... the quest to identify the boat.
EDIT: Gentile has been whinning about this "new evidence" now for I'd guess at least a year. If he's really got anything, time for him to put his cards on the table.
I agree! If the fishermen in the area have been there many times, then you know that divers probably visited it also...The book is about identifying the wreck, if the people that were there before knew about it, or identified it, they were keeping it a secret, and knowing what I've read about serious wreck divers, discovering and identifying a wreck is a HUGE notch in the ego belt!
I'm just enjoying the continuing saga! (and may just toss down the $20. for the book to see those 70 pages..read-a-holic I am! Yeah, I'm an easy mark for this kind of stuff!)
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Ah, where to start?
First, I have never said that Rob Kurson exaggerated anything? What I have said, over and over, is that Rob wrote his story in an incredibly dramatic and engaging way, to retain the interest of his readers. He is a talented and accomplished author, and they do stuff like that. He spent over a year interviewing everyone related to the story except for Paul Skibinski and Barb Lander who he could not find. That was before he wrote the first paragraph.
The book is not the World According to John & Richie, and I don't agree with everything he says because he listened to everyone, including people like Belinda and my ex-wife. They saw things different than I did, and Rob wrote what he felt really happened after a year of talking with all the individuals involved in the story. Rob wrote his own honest account of what he felt really happened.
I have never been interviewed, not once, for any of Gary's self published books. I have not read it, but he apparently wrote an expose on SD, without even asking for an interview with any of the principles? Much like the supermarket tabloid, too many questions can ruin a good story. Hence the Enquirer articles about aliens and people living on Titanic that you see, while you wait to checkout?
Now, the latest!! Some one tell me if I get this wrong, but the recently deceased Chuck Wine, and the late Bill Nagle, and some other unnamed guys, dive the U-boat in 1988, and are not interested enough to go back, apparently cannot remember diving it when we dive it 3 years later (and end up on the front page of the Star ledger), don't mention it to anyone when NOVA releases Hitler's Lost Sub in 2000, and are silent for 4 years after the book Shadow Divers is a #2 NYT bestseller?
Now, only after some "investigative journalism", these guys sort of remember diving the sub 20 years ago? However, the story is printed in a newsletter before it is written? Is there some reason he can't wait until he know what the story is, before he tells his readers about it? Are you kidding me? THis is not only unbelievable, it is unethical.
In 1991, only three local fishermen actually knew about the site that would be identified as the U-Who. Skeets, Paul Regula, and possibly the Bogens are the only guys and if there are more, then somebody tell me who they are? The site was remote, 60 miles offshore, and each of them tried to keep it for themselves. It was not commonly known by any means, and it was not dived prior to 1991.
There were very few divers back then who were even capable of diving that sort of depth, even if they had known about it. It was a small community, and as Rob mentioned in Shadow Divers, after the discovery we could not keep it secret for 24 hours when we were really trying to! Back then, 230 feet was deep, and three divers lost their lives diving it on air in the 14 months after it was discovered. It is not anything like deep diving today.
The site was virgin, the diving was ballsy, and Rob wrote a book that sold over a million copies in the US, and is published in 21 foreign language versions. If you don't like Shadow Divers, so be it, but you are in the minority. I don't think Rob ever imagined he would please everyone.
I have done some high profile dives, and more than a couple of authors have written about me and my diving. Between books and TV, I get more than my share of attention, and I have to expect to occasionally get attacked, as that is the price to pay for having a high profile.
However, some of this stuff is just too stupid to be believed? What else could they possibly have to write about?
Spend your money on the reading material you like.
Cheers
JC
First, I have never said that Rob Kurson exaggerated anything? What I have said, over and over, is that Rob wrote his story in an incredibly dramatic and engaging way, to retain the interest of his readers. He is a talented and accomplished author, and they do stuff like that. He spent over a year interviewing everyone related to the story except for Paul Skibinski and Barb Lander who he could not find. That was before he wrote the first paragraph.
The book is not the World According to John & Richie, and I don't agree with everything he says because he listened to everyone, including people like Belinda and my ex-wife. They saw things different than I did, and Rob wrote what he felt really happened after a year of talking with all the individuals involved in the story. Rob wrote his own honest account of what he felt really happened.
I have never been interviewed, not once, for any of Gary's self published books. I have not read it, but he apparently wrote an expose on SD, without even asking for an interview with any of the principles? Much like the supermarket tabloid, too many questions can ruin a good story. Hence the Enquirer articles about aliens and people living on Titanic that you see, while you wait to checkout?
Now, the latest!! Some one tell me if I get this wrong, but the recently deceased Chuck Wine, and the late Bill Nagle, and some other unnamed guys, dive the U-boat in 1988, and are not interested enough to go back, apparently cannot remember diving it when we dive it 3 years later (and end up on the front page of the Star ledger), don't mention it to anyone when NOVA releases Hitler's Lost Sub in 2000, and are silent for 4 years after the book Shadow Divers is a #2 NYT bestseller?
Now, only after some "investigative journalism", these guys sort of remember diving the sub 20 years ago? However, the story is printed in a newsletter before it is written? Is there some reason he can't wait until he know what the story is, before he tells his readers about it? Are you kidding me? THis is not only unbelievable, it is unethical.
In 1991, only three local fishermen actually knew about the site that would be identified as the U-Who. Skeets, Paul Regula, and possibly the Bogens are the only guys and if there are more, then somebody tell me who they are? The site was remote, 60 miles offshore, and each of them tried to keep it for themselves. It was not commonly known by any means, and it was not dived prior to 1991.
There were very few divers back then who were even capable of diving that sort of depth, even if they had known about it. It was a small community, and as Rob mentioned in Shadow Divers, after the discovery we could not keep it secret for 24 hours when we were really trying to! Back then, 230 feet was deep, and three divers lost their lives diving it on air in the 14 months after it was discovered. It is not anything like deep diving today.
The site was virgin, the diving was ballsy, and Rob wrote a book that sold over a million copies in the US, and is published in 21 foreign language versions. If you don't like Shadow Divers, so be it, but you are in the minority. I don't think Rob ever imagined he would please everyone.
I have done some high profile dives, and more than a couple of authors have written about me and my diving. Between books and TV, I get more than my share of attention, and I have to expect to occasionally get attacked, as that is the price to pay for having a high profile.
However, some of this stuff is just too stupid to be believed? What else could they possibly have to write about?
Spend your money on the reading material you like.
Cheers
JC
Missed ya at BTS this year, but I did get to meet the other Bob Marx this time.
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