The Truth about Michigan State Park/diving Legislation

[Greg_MacMaster]

OK, so if I am interpreting your comment correctly, 45 cents out of every dollar would be for administrative costs. That means $8.25 of my $15 "donation" would go to actually promoting or improving diving. That is NOT going to get my vote!

As a diver, why should I pay for promoting diving in Michigan? Wouldn't that be more beneficial to dive shops, charter operations, tourist bureaus, and motel operators?

I would rather donate directly to efforts like supporting the mooring on the Sandusky or the search for wrecks in my area by the MSRA. Let the diver choose how their donations should be spent, and let the dive industry in MI form it's own industry group and pay for promoting it's business. We don't need legislation for that!

I wouldn't expect it to get your vote and it wouldn't get mine either... so NO! don't interpret my comment.. That's how these messes get started. Any forward momentum is better than nothing. I think something along the lines of 15-18% would be sufficient, but that's me. Please realize that they haven't done anything in the past, so why should they get paid to do the same thing in the future? I don't care for the political games people play, but if it gets us what we want and can help the business, then I see no reason why we can't more forward. And your $15 is mear paultry compared to other funding sources to make this work. Everybody wants to make money off of somebody, which can lead to the degradation of a good program. There's way too much greed in this world!

You're not paying specifically of promotion.... It would go into a pool and the funds would be distributed accordingly. It's also too expensive for scuba shops to advertise at the level the state can. Donate to your choice and be well. Nothing is in stone yet.

 

[sleepdiver]

I would agree... Rec Diver is an excellent ambasador to the scuba diving community.


Since you haven't been on the Rec Diver before, I want to invite you to go out on it. I am sure it will be ok because I do scheduling for Larry Mc. If you can email us at larry@straitsscuba.com someone can get back to you and find a convenient time. We will try to find a time when there are not many divers booked on the boat so you can have a good time. We can get someone to buddy with and show you around if you want or you can bring someone.

This is no joke. We both think you should see what is in the Straits. There is no better way to see it than from the Rec Diver.

This month and September are good times to come, the water is about as warm as it gets and will stay that way through most of September.

 

[dsc2679]

Yea... Unfortunately... It'll probably be more. But isn't it better to have something to work with rather than nothing, which is what we have now. Would you drop .45 cents to pick up a dollar?

Mr. MM, you then later retract this comment saying "don't interpret my comment". Your the one who made the comment and you appear to have a bit of insight as to how the purposed funds would be spent, or at least how you would like them spent (hint: intentional wreck sinking in GTBUP). Also, you appear to be snuffing out the MUPC and the existing historic wreck, because they didn't get behind you and support you.

 

[sleepdiver]

I would agree... Rec Diver is an excellent ambasador to the scuba diving community.



Hi Greg. I just got off the phone with Larry McElroy (Rec Diver). He says he does not recall ever meeting you or seeing you at a meeting of any kind but he said he has heard a lot about you. He affirmed that you are welcome to come diving for free (and bring someone) if you get in touch with either of us. I really hope you take us up on this.

 

[bladephotog]

I wouldn't expect it to get your vote and it wouldn't get mine either... so NO! don't interpret my comment.. That's how these messes get started. Any forward momentum is better than nothing. I think something along the lines of 15-18% would be sufficient, but that's me. Please realize that they haven't done anything in the past, so why should they get paid to do the same thing in the future? I don't care for the political games people play, but if it gets us what we want and can help the business, then I see no reason why we can't more forward. And your $15 is mear paultry compared to other funding sources to make this work. Everybody wants to make money off of somebody, which can lead to the degradation of a good program. There's way too much greed in this world!

You're not paying specifically of promotion.... It would go into a pool and the funds would be distributed accordingly. It's also too expensive for scuba shops to advertise at the level the state can. Donate to your choice and be well. Nothing is in stone yet.

This sounds like the United Way of scuba diving in Michigan. I'd rather know 100% of my money is going where I want it to go.

And forward momentum is not always good. Not when you're headed for a train wreck.

I'm a middle of the road, sit on the fence kind of person. Probably because of what I do for a living. But your rhetoric sends up red flags that, frankly, do smell of politician. Now, not all politicians are bad. But I still have heard from anyone that supports your opinion that has a stake in this that isn't a politician. My 1/2 cent.

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

I would agree... Rec Diver is an excellent ambasador to the scuba diving community.



Hi Greg. I just got off the phone with Larry McElroy (Rec Diver). He says he does not recall ever meeting you or seeing you at a meeting of any kind but he said he has heard a lot about you. He affirmed that you are welcome to come diving for free (and bring someone) if you get in touch with either of us. I really hope you take us up on this.

We have met. And thank you for the ofer to dive "free" but I would rather pay my way as I'm sure no money can be made when people offer to do things for "free". I'd rather you take a paying scuba diver than take me for "free", although "good-will" is a way to promote scuba diving - the offer is appreciated but warmly declined.

 

[ComputerJoe]

It seems that both Mackinaw and Alger are getting about 300 divers a year each on their boats. This does not account for those who go back for seconds or those who dive both Preserves. They also can not account for those who dive from their own boats or other charters. That number could be backed into if the number of airfills for their charters were subtracted from the over all number of air fills.

It would do us all good to know how many divers frequent our Preserves so that the cost/benefit of any plan can be judged fairly and not exaggerated. Chris Kohl wrote a letter to the Michigan Legislature/Committee's that stated that after Tobermory initiated/raised the diving tax that the dive business fell off by 30% the next year.

I just wish that when someone next get's motivated to do something to enhance Shipwreck diving in the State, that the people involved in our Underwater Preserves are included. They were excluded entirely because they questioned what was put forward and then Legislated out of the proposed bills. It is only through their efforts and their own money that we have ANY buoys out there at all. Build a grass roots consensus first and give up on the one man show.

 

[MSU99]

Nitrox,

You are correct about being deeper, about 65-130 feet and the boat ride isn't that long (at least not with twin 350's). From fishing and diving experience in Thunder Bay I've never been across "Miles" of 40 foot deep water.

Bathemetry survey of lake huron:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/images/huron.jpg

Now looking at Lake Michigan and the Grand traverse bay the majority of the fingers are in the 150 ft to 650 foot range (leaning toward the deeper end for the majority if area)
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/michiganlarge.jpghttp://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/images/huron.jpg

How many additional divers would be generated if you sank a wreck in that depth range (150-650 ft), I would venture a guess that the number of open water and advanced open water divers who would not dive those depths far out number the Tech divers that would go to those depths.

Additionally, I would believe the reason for more wrecks on the east side of the state is that more tonnage was shipped past then on the west side. Were the west side got Chicago/Milwaukee tonnage passing, The east side gets a majority from Superior and Michigan and everything that is upbound to both those lakes. The west side of Lake Huron also probably seen more wrecks just because it was the more "Populated" Side of the lake.

MSU99

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

I just looked at The Underwater Preserves web site http://www.michiganpreserves.org/thunder.htm

I saw some wreaks in the 70-100 foot range and deeper, so I'm not sure what you're talking about (Situation normal). I would imagine part of the problem is Thunder Bay has actual shipping channels (hence all the wreaks). I just can't see a big freighter making port in GTB to load up on cherry pits.

Huh? No-No.... One of the complaints from a local scuba diver there was that if anything had to be sunk, it had to be below 40 as this is standard for the navigational hazards... And to do that, it would have to be waaaay out, as in miles. Therefore, no shore diving on an intentioanl sinking. That's what I meant (as I understood it from the Alpena diver).

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

Nitrox,

You are correct about being deeper, about 65-130 feet and the boat ride isn't that long (at least not with twin 350's). From fishing and diving experience in Thunder Bay I've never been across "Miles" of 40 foot deep water.

Bathemetry survey of lake huron:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/images/huron.jpg

Now looking at Lake Michigan and the Grand traverse bay the majority of the fingers are in the 150 ft to 650 foot range (leaning toward the deeper end for the majority if area)
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/michiganlarge.jpg

How many additional divers would be generated if you sank a wreck in that depth range (150-650 ft), I would venture a guess that the number of open water and advanced open water divers who would not dive those depths far out number the Tech divers that would go to those depths.

Additionally, I would believe the reason for more wrecks on the east side of the state is that more tonnage was shipped past then on the west side. Were the west side got Chicago/Milwaukee tonnage passing, The east side gets a majority from Superior and Michigan and everything that is upbound to both those lakes. The west side of Lake Huron also probably seen more wrecks just because it was the more "Populated" Side of the lake.

MSU99

Thanks for the links MSU99.

it's not about depth, it's about accessibility to the wreck. Please see this article. Maybe this would shed light on all of this.