The Truth about Michigan State Park/diving Legislation

[ComputerJoe]

After Thunder Bay was first named a marine sanctuary the first shipwreck surveyed, by Ken Varana, was the shallow New Orleans (14') I hear it cost them $30,000 and took about 5 years before the report was delivered. Ken Varanna, on Senators McManus's web site/talk show, has been promoting this legislation to our law makers claiming that in 1984-85 Alger Preserve had 6000 divers a year visit it. Folks that's 66.66 divers per day, EVERY DAY for a 90 day summer! The actual person (Ron Kunnien) doing the survey was not hired to survey the number of divers will not stand behind those numbers as they were an after thought that Munising wanted and roughly based on an estimate of air fills. They go on to say divers brought 2-3 million dollars into the local economy. From the US census figures the population in Algers DECREASED by 253 from 1980-1990 and the median house hold income DECREASED by $1654.

Who do you believe?

When I hear the proponents of this legislation pushing BS numbers like this around to get their legislation passes, anything they say afterwards looses credibility in my eyes.

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

After Thunder Bay was first named a marine sanctuary the first shipwreck surveyed, by Ken Varana, was the shallow New Orleans (14') I hear it cost them $30,000 and took about 5 years before the report was delivered. Ken Varanna, on Senators McManus's web site/talk show, has been promoting this legislation to our law makers claiming that in 1984-85 Alger Preserve had 6000 divers a year visit it. Folks that's 66.66 divers per day, EVERY DAY for a 90 day summer! The actual person (Ron Kunnien) doing the survey was not hired to survey the number of divers will not stand behind those numbers as they were an after thought that Munising wanted and roughly based on an estimate of air fills. They go on to say divers brought 2-3 million dollars into the local economy. From the US census figures the population in Algers DECREASED by 253 from 1980-1990 and the median house hold income DECREASED by $1654.

Who do you believe?

When I hear the proponents of this legislation pushing BS numbers like this around to get their legislation passes, anything they say afterwards looses credibility in my eyes.

Joe,

My numbers are not associated with Ken Vrana's. So he's out of the picture on this one. But I do back Pete Lindquists claim that the intentional sinking did save the business up there and do alot of good. You can tell me what I have is not accurate... But in doing so, you're bashing 2 PHd's work in research on the economical impact of intentional sinkings.

And the information you perportedly say is going around... well, when an opposer says that diving is dangerous and bad idea to promote it... That's a good way to kill the scuba diving industry in general.

By the way, have you seen your commercial for Thunder Bay (dive Thunder Bay)? You're going to love it!!!!! It really promotes you well. Now let's hope someone with money can put this on TV all over the nation!

 

[krjohnson]

And that committee is comprosed of you, me and others as well as the government.

11 people on this board

-2 from the DNR (one for park and recreation planning and one for Law enforcement)appointed by the DNR director.
-1 from Travel Michigan appointed by Travel Michigan director
-1 from the Department of Environmental Quality appointed by DEQ director
-1 from the department of History, Arts and Libraries appointed by HAL director
-6 from the general public appointed by the Governor with the Senates consent

I do not see how this represents the general diving public in Michigan. The six will be people the Governor knows or at least people who give on a regular basis.

While the committee’s power is only to make recommendations, they will have the power to recommend salvage permits, permit fees, criteria for permit applications, appropriate legislation, boundaries of the preserves, fees for the State Park Pass (for diving), how to spend the money and guidelines for the discovery of shipwrecks.

The bills are very vague on who has the ultimate authority on these recommendations. The bill does not state who will ultimately be in charge, if the committee recommends something to the DNR with a 9 to 2 vote the DNR can still say no. Even how to spend the money is only a recommendation, who would that recommendation go to? Who would have the final say?

A bill that does not answer simple questions is open for interpretation and can lead to problems down the road. This bill has no teeth, no enforcement and no clear guidelines

Better to have the bill fail than to have a confusing law.

 

[ComputerJoe]

Agreed!

It is strange that the current Underwater Preserves have no seat on this re-constituted committee. Their members are elected locally, NOT appointed.

And in the case of the last salvage permit approved by the Salvage Committee at the requested of the Daughter of the owner for just a few momento's from her Fathers ship (Leway? Luway?) then giving the rest to the State...Approved by the Committee, denied by the State. Guess what happened? You know who has the last word. An appointed committee will be salted with enough of those most plyable, to rubber stamp the State Administrators chosen policy.

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

Folks....

"I do not see how this represents the general diving public in Michigan."

It beats the current committee now overseeing things!

1 from the DNR Law enforcement (when they show up)
0 from Travel Michigan appointed by Travel Michigan director
2 from the Department of Environmental Quality
2 from the department of History, Arts and Libraries
6 from the general public appointed by the Governor with the Senates consent.

Joe,

The MUPC is a PUBLIC entity! No public entity will EVER have a "seat" on a Governor appointed board. "If" the MUPC had this "Seat", it would be a first! Which would open a pandoras box for every other "public" entity, such as; Museums, colleges and universities, salvage companies, dive shops...... It would get way out of hand. Just find a person who can represent all the preserves and sit on the board! Why do you have to have a seat that says "MUPC"? Get real! Either have the MUPC become a governmental institution and get that "title" or swallow the big pill and take a seat like every other public organization! Besides, IF the MUPC was to become a "governmental agency", a few on the current MUPC board wouldn't pass the state mandated background check!

If you have an issue with the State administrator, then take it up with them! it's not the fault of the MUS&PC if someone above them feels "larger than life" and stops the process!

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

11 people on this board

-2 from the DNR (one for park and recreation planning and one for Law enforcement)appointed by the DNR director.
-1 from Travel Michigan appointed by Travel Michigan director
-1 from the Department of Environmental Quality appointed by DEQ director
-1 from the department of History, Arts and Libraries appointed by HAL director
-6 from the general public appointed by the Governor with the Senates consent

I do not see how this represents the general diving public in Michigan. The six will be people the Governor knows or at least people who give on a regular basis.

While the committee’s power is only to make recommendations, they will have the power to recommend salvage permits, permit fees, criteria for permit applications, appropriate legislation, boundaries of the preserves, fees for the State Park Pass (for diving), how to spend the money and guidelines for the discovery of shipwrecks.

The bills are very vague on who has the ultimate authority on these recommendations. The bill does not state who will ultimately be in charge, if the committee recommends something to the DNR with a 9 to 2 vote the DNR can still say no. Even how to spend the money is only a recommendation, who would that recommendation go to? Who would have the final say?

A bill that does not answer simple questions is open for interpretation and can lead to problems down the road. This bill has no teeth, no enforcement and no clear guidelines

Better to have the bill fail than to have a confusing law.

Okay KR,

Add the verboge that would be acceptable to have those Bills pass! You have made your point and it's well taken...
As Papa Olaf once told me; "it's great to critisize... But without recommendations in a facilitative process, it becomes useless."

Now show us what you have to offer in a facilitative manner!
You too Compter Joe!

 

[JEScholz]

How much of every dollar should go to wards consulting and administrative fees? would you suggest a "cap" on funding to that area? I have an arbitrary number in mind, but let's hear yours.

If I said a nickel from every dollar, would you think I am being to naive?

 

[DOkie]

Greg: Next time you're representing us at a meeting in Lansing, I want you to bring something up. Went to Mackinac this weekend. Our local dive boat left from Mackinac City PUBLIC Marina. While getting my parking pass, I was told that "you people", meaning divers, have to park in the dirt lot next door because there are just too many of "you people". We were told not to use the loading and unloading spots because "you people" are taking up too much room. AND we were told that we needed to move our boats, because "we were getting in the way of the yatch owners and fishermen in the marina". We were supposed to figure our how to load our boats without taking up dock area. (Maybe don our scuba gear and swim to the boat???) There were 40-50 of us divers throughout two days. That's hotel rooms and eating. It's the last time our group goes to Mackinac. St. Ignace gets our business from now on. (Should have known to stay on this side anyway). That's just part of it, if you want to see the whole story go to the thread "New term for divers".

You talk about how divers have no concern for anyone or anything but themselves. Maybe we're just different up here. I'd like to give a BIG thanks to the Rec Diver for letting us tie up behind them and throwing out a bouy line for us to use against the current. You made what started out to be a bad experience, a pretty damn good day. Thanks guys!!!! Maybe you should represent us in Lansing!!!

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

If I said a nickel from every dollar, would you think I am being to naive?

Yea... Unfortunately... It'll probably be more. But isn't it better to have something to work with rather than nothing, which is what we have now. Would you drop .45 cents to pick up a dollar?

 

[Greg_MacMaster]

Greg: Next time you're representing us at a meeting in Lansing, I want you to bring something up. Went to Mackinac this weekend. Our local dive boat left from Mackinac City PUBLIC Marina. While getting my parking pass, I was told that "you people", meaning divers, have to park in the dirt lot next door because there are just too many of "you people". We were told not to use the loading and unloading spots because "you people" are taking up too much room. AND we were told that we needed to move our boats, because "we were getting in the way of the yatch owners and fishermen in the marina". We were supposed to figure our how to load our boats without taking up dock area. (Maybe don our scuba gear and swim to the boat???) There were 40-50 of us divers throughout two days. That's hotel rooms and eating. It's the last time our group goes to Mackinac. St. Ignace gets our business from now on. (Should have known to stay on this side anyway). That's just part of it, if you want to see the whole story go to the thread "New term for divers".

You talk about how divers have no concern for anyone or anything but themselves. Maybe we're just different up here. I'd like to give a BIG thanks to the Rec Diver for letting us tie up behind them and throwing out a bouy line for us to use against the current. You made what started out to be a bad experience, a pretty damn good day. Thanks guys!!!! Maybe you should represent us in Lansing!!!

Whoa there ... I wasn't there representing anybody but me and I said that in the testimony.