The State of Diving

[*dave*]

As for the pro - well I'm surprised to be honest. Most of the DMs i've seen there have far more ability than what we saw in the video and that's what I found particularly disturbing but yes I've seen the same stuff myself and been guilty of it too I'm afraid.

There was one DM with each of the two groups in the video. They were both very competent divers who displayed some pretty poor habits, but probably couldn't care less about looking slick.

If I were responsible for divers with the level of skill shown in the video, day after day, dive after dive, month after month.... I doubt I'd care much about how I looked either. Make no mistake, they were very skillful divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Certainly there are cases where divers are not being trained to standards. this is not one of those cases. There are no standards that say that you *must* dive horizontally (although in some circles not doing so as a matter of style is considered a sin), there are no standards outlawing the use of sculling, there are no standards saying that they *must* fly in formation with their buddy.... yet these are the things people (even instructors) point at and say "look, these divers were not trained to standards".

Why are you assuming this has anything at all to do with standards?

Where in the standards does it say it's OK to sit on the bottom and pass around a poisonous fish?

For God's sakes man ... do you TRULY believe that's an OK thing to do?

If standards are wrong, ok, let's debate that in the (I2I forum) and get some action like petitioning our agencies to put these things explicitly in the standards. I would certainly like to see divers looking tight after the OW course.... oh wait... mine do. But then that's the only thing I have control over.

The last few times that got tried, the only difference was the the non-pros didn't get to see what a great pissing match it turned into.

As always, there are a handful of ultrasensitive types who will choose to take it personally, interpret anything being critically discussed as an assault on their agency of choice, or simply label those attempting to discuss it with some insulting term.

Yeah, that's real productive ... and rather becoming of a group of supposed "professionals".

Actually, it's a complete waste of time.

Just like your students are the only thing you have control over and Bob's students are the only thing he has control over. It will be people like this who want to put the extra effort in who will always be sought after as instructors. The internet is a great medium for getting that message across, but not how you're doing it. Not with the negativity.

Wrong again ... in point of fact, I've had a positive influence on a great many people who were NOT my students by setting a good example, and being able to freely discuss with them things they weren't even previously aware of ... like gas management.

I USED to be able to do that on ScubaBoard without having SB Staff show up and accuse me of "sniffing sh1t". Unfortunately, a handful of SB Staff have decided that THEY should control what gets discussed here anymore, and freely insult anyone they don't agree with.

I am truly sorry to see that you have embraced that mentality. It will certainly have a chilling effect on how I choose to participate here ... as it has many others who USED to use this forum as a means to discuss information that a lot of people found useful.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

I don't recall this having anything to do with agencies. But I fear you're right.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't see how this has anything to do with agencies either.

To me there's a simple difference of opinion here about how to deal with improving the situation.

I don't see how pointing out yet another example of what we don't like and then laying blame on [pick someone] gets out out of this vicious circle.

When there are so many good things happening, like the way Dave and Bob are training their students, why are we looking at videos that focus on the negative, when it would have been just as easy to post a video of a new diver who was trained well and point out what was right about this.

That's all I'm on about just now. Why focus on the negative (sniffing sht) when we have such a resource of excellent instructors right here who could be show casing their excellence as a counter point to the status quo that so many people are confronted with.

I'm just offering the idea of looking at the coin from the other side.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

Why are you assuming this has anything at all to do with standards?

Where in the standards does it say it's OK to sit on the bottom and pass around a poisonous fish?

For God's sakes man ... do you TRULY believe that's an OK thing to do?

Of course not. I just triggered on the laying of blame. You were quite clear about who is to blame. I just find it unfortunate that we have to go in this circle, that's all.

I USED to be able to do that on ScubaBoard without having SB Staff show up and accuse me of "sniffing sh1t". Unfortunately, a handful of SB Staff have decided that THEY should control what gets discussed here anymore, and freely insult anyone they don't agree with.

First of all, staff have nothing to do with this. I'm sorry you found that insulting. It wasn't my intention. My intention was to generate a vivid visual image to describe the vicious circle we're in of pointing out negatives and laying blame. I just find that unfortunate.

 

[*dave*]

I think we need to lay the **** on the table and take a good long look at it. It needs to be identified before anything can be done about it. As things stand, there's people saying things like:

"****? What ****?"
"It's ****, but it's my ****"
"This isn't ****, THAT'S ****"
"It does smell, but it isn't my ****"
"I just go over here and I can't really smell it"
"I thought that was cheese"

Once positively identified, **** is a lot easier to deal with.

I will use this video in my OW class to identify issues which are commonly seen. This will not be the focus of the course, but it will be an important component.

That's all I'm on about just now. Why focus on the negative (sniffing sht) when we have such a resource of excellent instructors right here who could be show casing their excellence as a counter point to the status quo that so many people are confronted with.

I'm just offering the idea of looking at the coin from the other side.

R..

 

[FireInMyBones]

I put this video together from clips from the DVD we bought after a two tank Cancun dive. I'll be using it in my OW class to demonstrate poor trim, buoyancy control, situational awareness, dangling gear, hand sculling and finning technique.

I don't dive with many groups I'm not familiar with, so I was a bit surprised to find the level of skill displayed in the video to be so common on the dives I did in Mexico. I thought I'd get your input on how the skills displayed in the video compare to your real world experiences with divers you aren't familiar with.

Is this representative of today's state of diving?

Yes, unfortunately. I have never been anywhere that had that kind of wildlife, but at the lake, I have to show up early so I am not slited out, or approached by a new diver that comes and tries to hold on to me to stop from floating away. I guess they see double tanks and think "Heavy," but I don't know.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't understand why people lay awake at night about this point.

I cabn't say that I've ever not slept because of it, but I am concerned over damage to the worlds reefs and I do have an elitist's natural revulsion to witnessing a job poorly done.

Many people's students are well trained, many are not. There is a lot of variation.

There is a lot of variation in IQ's in the general population too. Should we lay awake at night worrying about the fact that they all get the same diploma after high-school?

That rather begs the point. IQ tests are designed to differentiate between people and thus have a normal distribution by design while high school diplomas are designed as a binary, discrete distribution that only has two values, have it or don't have it.

Certainly there are cases where divers are not being trained to standards. this is not one of those cases. There are no standards that say that you *must* dive horizontally (although in some circles not doing so as a matter of style is considered a sin), there are no standards outlawing the use of sculling, there are no standards saying that they *must* fly in formation with their buddy.... yet these are the things people (even instructors) point at and say "look, these divers were not trained to standards".

There are generally accepted norms of good behavior, on land and under water. This group, by and large, is an excellent example of poor behavior. If you don't find that repugnant, that speaks more to the strength of your stomach than to your discernment as a diving instructor. I'd be mortified if any student of mine ever looked like that, and I hope that you would feel the same way about your students.

If standards are wrong, ok, let's debate that in the (I2I forum) and get some action like petitioning our agencies to put these things explicitly in the standards. I would certainly like to see divers looking tight after the OW course.... oh wait... mine do. But then that's the only thing I have control over.

No, let's do it right here, out in the open, for all to see. We already know that most of the "agencies" don't give a damn, so the other approach is to take our perception of the problem (or lack of problem) to the diving public.

Just like your students are the only thing you have control over and Bob's students are the only thing he has control over. It will be people like this who want to put the extra effort in who will always be sought after as instructors. The internet is a great medium for getting that message across, but not how you're doing it. Not with the negativity.

I think is is important to teach people what unacceptable behavior looks like, since clearly many do not know that. It is easy for divers to wistfully look at videos of perfect trim and precise helicopter turns, but most divers response is just, "Gee, that's great, but I know I could never do that." So, for those of use who already produce divers who are two zeta to the right of the mean, it becomes important to do what we can to move those who are two zeta to the left a little closer to the middle.

If you want to get the message across with a positive tone then post video of your own students so people thinking about learning to dive are not shown the "sh1t" (to borrow my own analogy from my previous post but that they are shown the "flowers".

R..

Why, there are already plenty of high quality, "this is what it looks like" videos out there, people know what that looks like, what they need in conjunction with that is come clear illustration of what crappy divers look like.

I think we need to lay the **** on the table and take a good long look at it. It needs to be identified before anything can be done about it. As things stand, there's people saying things like:

"****? What ****?"
"It's ****, but it's my ****"
"This isn't ****, THAT'S ****"
"It does smell, but it isn't my ****"
"I just go over here and I can't really smell it"
"I thought that was cheese"

Once positively identified, **** is a lot easier to deal with.

I will use this video in my OW class to identify issues which are commonly seen. This will not be the focus of the course, but it will be an important component.

Hear! Hear!

 

[ptyx]

We already know that most of the "agencies" don't give a damn, so the other approach is to take our perception of the problem (or lack of problem) to the diving public.

There is another option one can take as a dive professional: walk.

An agency exists only because instructors teach to their standards, and shops promote their rules. An agency will notice if it starts bleeding its best instructors because they think the lack of standards dilute the value of their courses.

And it doesn't need to get ugly - competition between agencies is healthy.

(I don't think there is any modern diver which could blame anyone for not taking that route without being huge hypocrite himself - so this is not an attack on any specific agency or anyone. And I need to stop using so many double negatives in a single sentence.).

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't need that option, I do not have to walk, I was never in that place to begin with.

Agency's do not care about bleeding their best instructors, in fact they are often glad to be rid of them. The average instructor lasts about two years, those who stay longer most often than not become part of the problem by becoming part of the status quo that continues to grind out divers (and instructors) that look like those in the video.

The competition between the agencies is not healthy. It has become a race for the bottom a contest of who can market them most minimal program, capable of being "taught" by the least skilled "instructor."

I can "blame" those who have taken that route with no hypocrisy of any sort and I know quite a few other who can also.

 

[Van Isle]

To the OP:
Firstly: video editing is a powerful too, so I am not sure if your "clip" is representative of the diving population. If an infinite number of highly skilled divers were filmed over an infinite number of hours you could still reproduce that video.

Secondly: I hope you have the informed and signed consent of all of the models in that video before you use it commercially as prop to berate them and hold yourself up on a high horse in your classes.