The pursuit of Records in Diving (depth, etc)

[The Chairman]

My only concern has been, and will be, that the dive community makes itself safer. Your notions do not further that, as they encourage reasonable divers to disassociate themselves from a single unreasonable diver.

Did you just read what you wrote? Hell yes, I'm encouraging reasonable divers to disassociate themselves from unreasonable divers. Why would you want them to do otherwise??? You can call a dive at any time for any reason, no questions asked and with no repercussions. That includes diving with anyone who appears to be 'unreasonable'... or unsafe... or who lacks the skill... or who lacks the qualifications... or is clueless for any number of reasons. We give DIR a bunch of crap for their dictum "Don't dive with strokes!", but I agree with them on this. There are a lot of divers who are deluded about their qualifications and skills and will stroke their ego by putting you into danger. Avoid them. Actively avoid them.

I don't, however, enjoy your rancid-agenda to belittle any theory you disprove of, to cast dispersions on people's character or motives, and to stifle free-thinking and free-speech due to some unfathomable personal grudge.

I'm not sure why you think me disagreeing with you on something is some 'rancid agenda' trying to stifle free speech. I'm actually exercising my right to think differently than you. Oh the horrors! The whole point of a forum is to discuss issues. To agree and perchance to disagree is part and parcel of such discussions. You're making out a simple disagreement to be much more than it is and in so doing YOU are the one trying to stifle free thinking and free speech. In that regard, I allow anyone to disagree with me freely without suggesting that they are trying to harass me or prosecute "some unfathomable personal grudge". If you can't stand the heat of civil discourse, then why even post? You stated at the very top of your post that you won't be drawn in, but you're the one being aggressive. Give this a rest Andy and stay on topic.

 

[Hetland]

Obviously, this wasn't his first rodeo of delusion and denial. Call it what you will, but his support staff were as much of his 'team' as the gardener is a part of a household or as the ball boy is a part of the football team. They were given tasks to do, but they were never asked for their input. He didn't need it because he thought he had it all figured out. Again, they fully believed that his understanding was far beyond any local authority on the subject and they stated as such.

Bull$#!^. You expect me to believe these technical instructors didn't understand gas planning? cutting tables? You could argue that he convinced them that he was somehow immune to all the horrors of compression/decompression (all theoretical), but not that every single member of his team ignored gas laws and reasonable consumption rates. Did they think he was a fish with gills? Aquaman?

What person in their right mind would follow this guy down a path with no exit in this world? These instructors were publicly, and with much fanfare, exceeding their training (diving below 200ft) and risking their livelihoods. He may have been the pied piper, but if everyone on the support team, maybe just a handful, would have refused to participate, he may have been diverted from his course. What boat captain would allow such an activity on their vessel? Who would sell this guy gas, knowing what his ultimate "goal" was?

 

[kr2y5]

Did you just read what you wrote? Hell yes, I'm encouraging reasonable divers to disassociate themselves from unreasonable divers. Why would you want them to do otherwise??? You can call a dive at any time for any reason, no questions asked and with no repercussions. That includes diving with anyone who appears to be 'unreasonable'... or unsafe... or who lacks the skill... or who lacks the qualifications... or is clueless for any number of reasons. We give DIR a bunch of crap for their dictum "Don't dive with strokes!", but I agree with them on this. There are a lot of divers who are deluded about their qualifications and skills and will stroke their ego by putting you into danger. Avoid them. Actively avoid them.

I think Andy was simply trying to point out that all of us have the potential to act unreasonably under certain circumstances, I'd think that's pretty commonly accepted.

If you agree with that, then rather than divide the world into idiots and non-idiots, disassociate yourself from "the idiots", and conclude that none of it applies to you in any way, perhaps it does indeed make more sense for all of us to consider the factors that could impair our good judgement, and learn from the experience.

 

[Diver0001]

Bull$#!^. You expect me to believe these technical instructors didn't understand gas planning? cutting tables? You could argue that he convinced them that he was somehow immune to all the horrors of compression/decompression (all theoretical), but not that every single member of his team ignored gas laws and reasonable consumption rates. Did they think he was a fish with gills? Aquaman?

I actually would suggest this.

Planning a dive to 150 or 200m can be done pretty much "out of the box". It doesn't matter if you do it with RGBM or Haldane. With a computer or on tables...... Nothing needs to be modified and you don't need to account for HPNS or other ailments. My friends do dives like this all the time. This is mainstream technical diving. Garman's training dives were all in this zone. All of them.

Making the MASSIVE assumption that diving at 1200ft is the same as diving at 500ft is the diving equivalent of jumping out of an airplane without a parachute and *assuming* that one will suddenly materialize above your head when you need it. I called it the diving equivalent of "ready, aim, shoot". The fact that he had *3* (count em) *3* computers on a dive that under no circumstances could be planned as a computer dive, was a clear indication that he had no idea whatsoever what he was doing. Technical divers all over the world would have triggered on this.

He needed 2 bottom timers. No more. A Rolex would have done and a Citizen.

R..

 

[The Chairman]

Bull$#!^. You expect me to believe these technical instructors didn't understand gas planning? cutting tables?

I suggest that with their current levels of training and understanding, he went waaaaaay beyond their ability to know if he was way out of the ball park.

What person in their right mind would follow this guy down a path with no exit in this world?

But they didn't follow him. They stayed pretty safe and in depths that they could manage. This was the ultimate 'Here, hold my beer' maneuver... but that's really all they did. He did all the planning for his dive. He did all the research. He made all the decisions. He was out of his league, just as everyone else helping him was, only he was deluded into believing that he had the keys to success.

Many Scuba accidents involve divers simply exceeding their limits due to their own self delusions. It's my belief that this is what happened here and it's backed up by his history of that very same practice.

If you agree with that, then rather than divide the world into idiots and non-idiots, disassociate yourself from "the idiots", and conclude that none of it applies to you in any way, perhaps it does indeed make more sense for all of us to consider the factors that could impair our good judgement, and learn from the experience.

Actually, I don't think it takes a village to create an idiot. Idiots are resourceful enough all on their own. In fact, give that idiot some charisma and they can fool a lot of peeps into believing them and helping them on their path to destruction. Let me put this into a personal perspective... I started diving way back in 1969, the same year I started working at an auto shop. One of my customers was a pretty famous diver/instructor who always told me I should get certified before I killed myself. But I kept reading about the deaths of his former students trying to set a new record for depth so his admonition seemed pretty pointless. To my shame, I tried to do some deep dives back then too... and had my share of close calls that I recognized and many, many more that I probably didn't.

What you don't know can def kill you. What you ignore can kill you just as quickly. The same can be said for things you simply dismiss. Ignorance, delusion and denial are the three deadliest attributes any diver can possess. If you want to stay alive: do all you can to rid yourself of those three. Your life depends on it. I'm not sure anyone is saying this isn't true?

 

[wedivebc]

Bull$#!^. You expect me to believe these technical instructors didn't understand gas planning? cutting tables? You could argue that he convinced them that he was somehow immune to all the horrors of compression/decompression (all theoretical), but not that every single member of his team ignored gas laws and reasonable consumption rates. Did they think he was a fish with gills? Aquaman?

What, you think that hasn't happened before? At least he didn't start his own training agency.

 

[Hetland]

I suggest that with their current levels of training and understanding, he went waaaaaay beyond their ability to know if he was way out of the ball park.

Did they know gas laws? RMV? He didn't have enough backgas to get to the bottom, and haul-ass back to ~950fsw. Gas laws don't change because you took a hypoxic trimix class. Were they too !@#$% stupid to look at his plan and figure out he didn't have enough gas?

But they didn't follow him. They stayed pretty safe and in depths that they could manage. This was the ultimate 'Here, hold my beer' maneuver... but that's really all they did. He did all the planning for his dive. He did all the research. He made all the decisions. He was out of his league, just as everyone else helping him was, only he was deluded into believing that he had the keys to success.

He could not have done this dive without a boat, support divers, and a fill station. A captain might not be expected to know this, but certainly his former instructors SHOULD have known it. Do you want to get in the water with a dude that's virtually guaranteed to kill himself? I don't. If they bothered to take even a five minute look at his plan, they would have been able to punch all kinds of holes in it. They wanted this dive to happen, because everyone wanted it to happen. Two or three people dropping out of the support team would have probably forced the others to re-examine themselves and the plan.

What, you think that hasn't happened before? At least he didn't start his own training agency.

^ Very nice.

Didn't most of the community get smarter since then? Even the robots are starting to move closer to conventional standards.

 

[Nemrod]

But when they market themselves as knowing more about technical diving than anyone on the planet, and then very publicly kill themselves while diving, it could result in consequences for the rest of us. If you want to jump off a building, make sure you don't land on my car.

So base diving, human kite flying, F1 driving, sky diving, air racing, aerobatics, speed sports, tight rope walking, running with the bulls, anything risky whatever should all be banned? Where do you draw the line?

Maybe doing anything outside the norm should be banned. Mooooo, moooooo, mooooooooo.

And when you said "you" referring to me rest assured I will not be landing on your car but if somebody (other than me) did base jump onto it I bet insurance would cover it.

Threads like this serve no purpose. Just a thread for those who would not to chastise those who would and those who would will anyways while those who cannot will not.

No aspersions intended upon anyone. It is simply a useless thread because basic human nature and behaviors cannot be changed even when made illegal. It just gets done illegally instead of legallly and becomes a revenue source for the government to further restrict liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Pursuit of happiness, that is one for you, a concept that really did not exist until relatively recent in human history, probably a fleeting concept.

Like the movie Divergent, a silly little movie, but, I guess some of us are divergent, most of us are not.

Safety is way overrated.

N

 

[Dhboner]

So base diving, human kite flying, F1 driving, sky diving, air racing, aerobatics, speed sports, tight rope walking, running with the bulls, anything risky whatever should all be banned? Where do you draw the line?

Maybe doing anything outside the norm should be banned. Mooooo, moooooo, mooooooooo.

And when you said "you" referring to me rest assured I will not be landing on your car but if somebody (other than me) did base jump onto it I bet insurance would cover it.

Threads like this serve no purpose. Just a thread for those who would not to chastise those who would and those who would will anyways while those who cannot will not.

No aspersions intended upon anyone. It is simply a useless thread because basic human nature and behaviors cannot be changed even when made illegal. It just gets done illegally instead of legallly and becomes a revenue source for the government to further restrict liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Pursuit of happiness, that is one for you, a concept that really did not exist until relatively recent in human history, probably a fleeting concept.

Like the movie Divergent, a silly little movie, but, I guess some of us are divergent, most of us are not.

Safety is way overrated.

N

Easy to say.....
but it would be interesting to hear your wife or children's take on that if you were to die at the end of a 1,200 foot rope in the Atlantic ocean. Bravado is easy in theory...less so in practice.

 

[scagrotto]

As for nudity laws, I think they're silly, but I understand that there is an argument to be made that they ARE affecting others by offending them in public.

And there's the root of the problem. We've got far too many laws prohibiting people from doing things not because they cause actual harm to somebody else, but because other people think that it somehow harms them or, even worse, because they're offended or just don't approve. If we could all agree on what actual harm is there's a chance the societal stance on such things would evolve, but I don't imagine a widespread consensus is likely.

I will not be landing on your car but if somebody (other than me) did base jump onto it I bet insurance would cover it.

Whose insurance will cover it, and who's paying the premiums for the policy?

To use a much more mainstream activity than base jumping, I think that if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet you're probably not very good at evaluating risk, but I don't mind at all that you're increasing your risk. OTOH, I don't want to pay an extra dime in insurance costs because some people end up with massive brain injuries that wouldn't have happened if they had taken the sensible safety precaution of wearing a helmet, and I'm not especially opposed to helmet laws. I acknowledge that there's a certain amount of hypocrisy in that outlook, but I long ago came to the conclusion that some level of hypocrisy is just normal human nature. People can be very generous and magnanimous, but we're also very good at looking out for number one and putting our own interests above those of others. We're also very good at expecting other people to behave the way we think they should.

Thousands of people die every year by drowning in public pools or at public beaches, but society isn't going to ban swimming or start charging people who need help from a lifeguard, because swimming is such a common and popular activity. At the same time, that popularity doesn't keep an enormous number of places from being closed to swimming when there's no lifeguard coverage. In comparison, very few people die scuba diving, and only a very few people die doing extreme dives, but diving isn't nearly as popular or as common as swimming. That makes government regulation less likely, but if the government does decide to step in don't expect very many non-divers to get worked up about it. It won't be limiting their freedoms, and it might even mean they don't somehow pay for somebody else's mishap.