The Problem with Science as a Substitute

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Sounds very similar to " You better be good or you will get nothing but coal in your stocking." Philosophically speaking, if good behavior is motivated by the threats, are the long and short term rewards the same as for those with naturally good behavior?

Nobody here can probably help you deal with the psychological threats that your mother told you AWAP when you were a kid when she was trying to control you and nothing else worked, apparently. What about professional help?

But at least now you have indeed stumbled yourself into the area of professional science: medical science. Congrats!

However, even medical science makes strong usage of religious principles, however, in the preparation for death from a fatal terminal chronic disease.

But now at least I think you are on the right track to reality.

Ergo, when you need medical help, and when medical science cannot help you, then you are definitely outside of the realm of medical science, and are left with either pure philosophy or else pure religion or at worst pure atheism, lonely as it is.

You should contemplate this on your own tree of woe.
 
Ah... you picked a good one Thass, struck a chord with me... a classic example of Scientific Faith, the "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not" faith of the scientist. Faith in their own "science" held up the smallpox cure in England for three generations unnecessarily - until one of their own (Jenner) could claim credit for the "great scientific discovery." In fact, innoculation against smallpox was well known much earlier in Turkey, and had been reported by the wife of the British ambassador(Mary Wortley Montagu, who had her own children innoculated while in Istanbul) there nearly 80 years earlier!

So I'm a little late on this (I was on holiday; no net, no TV, nothing but sun, beer and fishing...) - sorry if this has been replied to already, but the above is blatantly false.

Varolation, the process you're mentioning above has been practised for around 1000 years in the east (mainly China and India). Variolation involves inhaling or injecting small pox pustules. This would (usually) induce a "safe" infection that would help prevent further infecitons. However, variolation was only an emergency measure, as it carried a risk of death from smallpox (around 2%), a risk of morbidity (around 20%), and the variolated person became infectious and could spread smallpox to others.

Also, varolation was practiced in England, contrary to the claims above. What actually happend was that variolation was announced in English medical circles in 1714, and during the eppidemic of 1721 the royal family enquired to their doctor about variolation. Feeling that it was unproven the doctors first tested the method on covicts, and when found to work, was used on the royal family. Both the doctors and the royal family activly promoted variolation in the UK. Variolation was a common treatment during epidemics in pre-vaccine England, USA, and Canada.

In contrast, Jenner's vaccine was totally differnt. Jenner noticed that milk maids who were infected with cow pox (a nearly harmless disease which in humans causes skin blisters) simply did not get small pox. He then found that the deliberate infection of people with cowpox gave them the same immunity. Unlike variolation, the vaccination could be given safely during non-epidemic periods, carried a minimal risk, and vaccinated people did not become carriers of the disease that they were trying to prevent.

But the ultimate proof of their difference is their effect - variolation is a 1000-year old technology which did nothing to prevent smallpox, decrease its incidence, or prevent its spread around the world. In just a little over a century vaccination eliminated smallpox.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you clearly were fed a buch of anti-science, or at least anti-vaccine lies...

Bryan
 
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Faith healing really did a great job with smallpox didn't it? Many religions prayed for relief, none got any. It took medical science to eradicate it, not prayer or faith. There is evidence that attitude can effect the course of some disease processes, if faith results a "better" attitude, then you can make the jump, but it is not "faith" it is attitude.

Tell me ... as a general thing, would you rather have faith or an antibiotic?

Ah... you picked a good one Thass, struck a chord with me... a classic example of Scientific Faith, the "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not" faith of the scientist. Faith in their own "science" held up the smallpox cure in England for three generations unnecessarily - until one of their own (Jenner) could claim credit for the "great scientific discovery." In fact, innoculation against smallpox was well known much earlier in Turkey, and had been reported by the wife of the British ambassador(Mary Wortley Montagu, who had her own children innoculated while in Istanbul) there nearly 80 years earlier!
To quote from just one of her letters (I don't have the exact date, but as she arrived in 1717 and returned in 1718):
"I am patriot enough to take the pains to bring this useful invention into fashion in England, and I should not fail to write to some of our doctors very particularly about it, if I knew any one of them that I thought had virtue enough to destroy such a considerable branch of their revenue, for the good of mankind. But that distemper is too beneficial to them, not to expose to all their resentment, the hardy wight that should undertake to put an end to it. Perhaps if I live to return, I may, however, have courage to war with them." She did return, in 1718, and she did try to break into the medical community with the knowledge of innoculation, but as we know from history it was Jenner who discovered it in 1796!
The altar of science is subject to the same arrogances and the same abuses that we see at the altars of other religions.
Today, in what appears is going to end up the coldest year in recorded history, we're burning food (putting ethanol in gas tanks) on the altar of "manmade global warming."
HA! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
E.

So I'm a little late on this (I was on holiday; no net, no TV, nothing but sun, beer and fishing...) - sorry if this has been replied to already, but the above is blatantly false.

Varolation, the process you're mentioning above has been practised for around 1000 years in the east (mainly China and India). Variolation involves inhaling or injecting small pox pustules. This would (usually) induce a "safe" infection that would help prevent further infecitons. However, variolation was only an emergency measure, as it carried a risk of death from smallpox (around 2%), a risk of morbidity (around 20%), and the variolated person became infectious and could spread cowpox to others.

Also, varolation was practiced in England, contrary to the claims above. What actually happend was that variolation was announced in English medical circles in 1714, and during the eppidemic of 1721 the royal family enquired to their doctor about variolation. Feeling that it was unproven the doctors first tested the method on covicts, and when found to work, was used on the royal family. Both the doctors and the royal family activly promoted variolation in the UK. Variolation was a common treatment during epidemics in pre-vaccine England, USA, and Canada.

In contrast, Jenner's vaccine was totally differnt. Jenner noticed that milk maids who were infected with cow pox (a nearly harmless disease which in humans causes skin blisters) simply did not get small pox. He then found that the deliberate infection of people with cowpox gave them the same immunity. Unlike variolation, the vaccination could be given safely during non-epidemic periods, carried a minimal risk, and vaccinated people did not become carriers of the disease that they were trying to prevent.

But the ultimate proof of their difference is their effect - variolation is a 1000-year old technology which did nothing to prevent smallpox, decrease its incidence, or prevent its spread around the world. In just a little over a century vaccination eliminated smallpox.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you clearly were fed a buch of anti-science, or at least anti-vaccine lies...

Bryan
Hmmm ... thanks Bryan. I guess, at least in this case, "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not."
 
Hmmm ... thanks Bryan. I guess, at least in this case, "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not."

Well, in this case you didn't need to be a scientists; all of what I wrote could be garnered through about 2 minutes of reading an encyclopedia.

I guess this time literacy was the key factor...

Bryan
 
clap clap clap clap....our copy and paste works...so, no, literacy did not prevail.....only CONTROL C and CONTROL V prevailed :D

ok, so obviously religeon is not a substitute for architecture and city planning as can be seen in this pic:

mapofheaven.jpg
 
AXL, you seem like a really clever dude. Maybe you can help AWAP with his psychoses?

Science is really good at cataloging these, and then prescribing therapy.

This is all about recording data, and then theorizing solutions.

This might be right up your alley? A little bit of science, and a lot of atheism, combined with impertinance and flippant irony, n'est pas?

A minister, on the other hand, would use a religious approach of confession and repentence, from a perspective of sin and forgiveness. But you would not be any good at that role, would you?

Nor do you seem to know jack squat about philosophy either, aye? So Plato and Aristotle do not need to worry about you writing any books on it then, huh?
 
The problem with science as a substitute for philosophy or for religion is the following:

1) Science was never intended to take the place of its greater discipline of philosophy;

2) Science has nothing to do with religion;

3) Science is merely a form of investigation of the physical world;

4) When people become enthralled with science, and then attempt to substitute it in their lives for philosophy or for religion, it is as if they are applying a square peg to a round hole, and doing so would be erroneous;

5) When people become entralled with religion, and then attempt to substitute it in their lives for all other thought processes, to the exclusion of philosophy and/or of science, it is as if they are applying a round peg to a square hole, which is also erroneous.

Science has its earliest roots in ancient Egypt and ancient Greece with medical specialization by the Egyptians and Greek physicians. They soon learned that by trial and error, they could identify certain cures and procedures to solve various ailments, injuries, or diseases.

Science then made great advances during the industrial revolution, when instruments, tools, and laboratory procedures became more sophisticated.

During the 20th and 21st centuries, stunning successes by scientists resulted in their adoration and enthralment by much of the public, which now gives them much more credit than even they themselves admit they are due.

Thus science for most of the amateur public has now evolved into what common peasants formerly viewed as "magic," and so the public's odd reliance on science for answers to every question, even those to which science is completely unrelated and for which science cannot devise "experiments," has resulted in the amateur public's false notion that science can tell them anything and everything.

They then fall into the formal logical trap of the fallacy of argument from ignorance, as well as the fallacy of the false authority on an issue. And after enough people are acting like fools in these manners, then the fallacy becomes an argumentum populorum, as they begin to quote each other, and say "well everyone thinks so too."

The solution to these problems lies in people gaining more knowledge.

A knowledge of the principles of philosophy is a good place to start, since philosophy deals with discussions of how human thought progresses, and what can be known, and what cannot be known, and how things are perceived.

A knowledge of the various religions on this great green planet of ours (blue in some places), and what they teach, and where and when they originated, then lends itself to an actual understanding of the different roles of science, of philosophy, and of religion.

People who mistakenly mix science, philosophy, and religion in their discussions and arguments are revealing about themselves that they have not done the complete study and thus have an incomplete (if any) education. And this is the exact definition of ignorance.

It is especially ignorant and uneducated to try to argue that science precludes religion, or that religion precludes science. As east is east, and west is west, nary these twain shall ever meet. An intelligent and well educated person will clearly understand this.

The most intelligent approach, which also demonstrates a high degree of education, is to recognize whether a question falls into one of 3 broad categories: either science related, or philosophy related, or religion related.

Matters of science can simply be answered by experimentation or trial and error. And if you cannot concieve of such an experiment, then recognize that the question is unrelated to science.

Matters of philosophy are questions or issues of how to decide something, or concerning value judgments. Is passivism preferred to activism? Is pacifism preferred to militarism? Is peace always better than war? Is war ever preferred to peace? Is it possible to know where the universe came from? Those are all matters of philosophy, and not of science or religion.

Matters of religion deal with non-physical ideas or beliefs that are broadcast by persons claiming special experiences, the kind that cannot be repeated for others in a scientific experimentation sense. Are there immortal god-like beings? Is there a supreme god? Do any or all of the popular religions of the Earth represent correctly the laws and rules of this supreme god? Will we go on living in a different sphere after we die physicaly? You cannot answer these questions with either philosophy nor with science.

It is best always to remember these 3 divisions of issues, and their infinite separation from each other.
The problem with this thread, one from which it will never recover, is that the OP is based on a "do you still beat your wife?" style of logical fallacy. Science is not a substitute for religion, that very suggestion is repugnant. I have no religion, I've never had any religion, and I have no need whatever to replace something that is not and has never been part of my life. Science, on the other hand, has always been part of my life, but it is an approach to problems, tool, a modus operandi, not a belief system.
 
The problem with this thread, one from which it will never recover, is that the OP is based on a "do you still beat your wife?" style of logical fallacy. Science is not a substitute for religion, that very suggestion is repugnant. I have no religion, I've never had any religion, and I have no need whatever to replace something that is not and has never been part of my life. Science, on the other hand, has always been part of my life, but it is an approach to problems, tool, a modus operandi, not a belief system.

Seems to me the OP has substituted religion for science. Perhaps he feels the same about science as you do about religion.
 
What? Do you think that he feels that religion is an approach to problem solving (e.g., pray for a cure for smallpox) or that religion is a tool (pray for divine intervention and the creation of a semiconductor or to determine the efficacy of new drug)? As a modus operandi (and to my way of thinking that is an abysmal waste of time and brainpower) ... sure, but not the two others.
 
Perhaps it is only a partial rejection of science in favor of religion. How else would you rationalize the rejection of so much evidence regarding the history of the universe in favor of an interpretation of some biblical records which might suggest a "beginning" a mere 6000 years ago?
 

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