The Philosophy of Diver Training

[DCBC]

How exactly do you propose to turn this particular clock back? It's surely simply the market in operation.

I don't think that you can lump all diving instruction into one pile. I will agree that there are those who feel that minimal, cheaper and faster makes the most money. These groups (along with the certification agencies that promote this training philosophy) are the most financially successful.

On the other-hand, there are other instructors who teach through other training agencies that do not see financial return as the key motivator. Some focus on the level of diver competence and design their program to be more inclusive.

Today's Society seems to gravitate towards the quick and easy, so the majority of the people seem to go in this direction. This is not to say that there is not a market for more inclusive training. Although the way I teach has evolved over time, many of the same skill-sets I taught divers 38 years ago, I teach today. I do this not because I'm a creature of habit, but that I truthfully believe that these skill-sets better prepare the diver for the diving environment and the real hazards that they may be confronted with.

There are diving certification agencies like LA County, SEI and CMAS that have more inclusive training philosophies. Although they don't turn large numbers, they remain "in business." They seek to maintain a higher level of training/exposure time than is otherwise commonplace. They have been operating successfully for many years.

There will continue to be instructors who teach without remuneration; participating in diving instruction solely because they enjoy it. The course I'm currently training is 50 hours and costs around $200 inclusive, which is about twice as long and half the price of the program offered by the local dive shop.

I suppose what I'm saying, is that there often is an alternative to the quick, easy format used by the majority of the diving training providers. People just have to realize that they often have a choice.

 

[The Chairman]

I suppose what I'm saying, is that there often is an alternative to the quick, easy format used by the majority of the diving training providers. People just have to realize that they often have a choice.

There is a flip side to this. Most shops were not started to make a million bucks, but to "live the dream". These shops eschew DCBC's stodgy, lengthy and narcissistic approach by providing fun, progressive and innovative classes where diving is immensely safe, enjoyable and can remain a part time activity. Make no doubt about it, there are a few greedy shop owners out there, and POV Warriors like DCBC will try and paint everyone who chooses to NOT teach like them as such. They try to portray the exceptions as the rule, and love to feel more important than everyone else. Don't be fooled by their condescension and arrogance. They talk a great game, but all they have is talk. There is no substance and clearly no solutions they can offer us.

Yes, there is a choice! You can be an innovative and conscientious instructor with any agency that you choose. You can be quite successful and turn out some awesome divers with any combination of the alphabet you desire: even PADI. Don't let the bashers make you feel ashamed of your agency. Sure, if they can't counter your arguments they will simply ignore you and claim you have insulted them. It's certainly not our fault that they came empty handed to a war of wits.

 

[DCBC]

There is a flip side to this. Most shops were not started to make a million bucks, but to "live the dream". These shops eschew DCBC's stodgy, lengthy and narcissistic approach by providing fun, progressive and innovative classes where diving is immensely safe, enjoyable and can remain a part time activity. Make no doubt about it, there are a few greedy shop owners out there, and POV Warriors like DCBC will try and paint everyone who chooses to NOT teach like them as such. They try to portray the exceptions as the rule, and love to feel more important than everyone else. Don't be fooled by their condescension and arrogance. They talk a great game, but all they have is talk. There is no substance and clearly no solutions they can offer us.

Yes, there is a choice! You can be an innovative and conscientious instructor with any agency that you choose. You can be quite successful and turn out some awesome divers with any combination of the alphabet you desire: even PADI. Don't let the bashers make you feel ashamed of your agency. Sure, if they can't counter your arguments they will simply ignore you and claim you have insulted them. It's certainly not our fault that they came empty handed to a war of wits.

I've come to just ignore your comments NetDoc. At first I tried to understand your message, because usually everyone has something to say that may be valuable. Unfortunately, all I read from you is arrogance. You are so filled with yourself that your message is lost.

You love repeating words like "POV Warrior" which I'm sure means something in your own mind, but has no place in a rational conversation. All any of us have is our point-of-view. If someone disagrees with yours, you belittle them; hardly very professional.

A War of wits? I thought this was suppose to be a friendly forum? Ah yes, I forgot you can't play by your own rules...

 

[hg frogman]

But what method do you use instead of a distance/time swim to judge their physical stamina? I've always thought that the swim requirement (along with an underwater breathhold swim) was designed to serve two purposes, to demonstrate water comfort/ability and test physical condition.

1) A swim test (swimming while wearing only speedos) does not always tell about underwater comfort/ability. I have known people that were professional swimmers and that weren't at ease at all with a regulator in their mouth, even after a few days (sort of phobia). And I have seen very poor swimmers that were excellent divers.

2) For assessing stamina (which is a good idea) in the PADI OW course the student can choose between a 200 meters swim in speedos and a 300 meters swim with fins, mask and snorkel. I like students to choose the second option because I can both check their stamina and check/improve their finning and snorkeling.

3) It's better for the "man fallen in the sea" (from the boat) to be a good swimmer. It's hard from me to tell whether this only point should prevent bad swimmers with good stamina (and who are successful in staying 10' afloat) from undertaking scuba diving. Life is an adventure, after all.

 

[hg frogman]

The instructors arrive at an OW site and tell the students what skills they need to perform on the coming dive. The skills are new to the students. It is briefly described, and then the students are evaluated on their performance. They often fail. The next OW opportunity might be a month away.

In the meantime, the students might get together on their own and try it in a pool. They might go to the Internet and look for video to see how it is done. Eventually they will get back into the OW setting and perform to the instructor's satisfaction. That is because the instructor does not believe all those other steps should be necessary.

The students disagree and think the class would be more efficient and faster with some steps before the evaluation phase.

It is obvious that an instructor will be more efficient if he goes step by step (eg video, then confined water, then open water) before any final assessment. It's one of the pillars of PADI training (and not only of PADI's, but PADI is good at this).

I cannot think of one professional instructor I know who would act as you mention in your first paragraph above (unless he wants to frustrate/humily the students and show his own superiority, but that's patho-psychology of training, then).

I don't want to be offending (and I thank you for helpful posts) but I sincerely wonder if the behaviour you mention in this first paragraph happens significantly amongst teaching professional instructors ?

 

[The Chairman]

I've come to just ignore your comments NetDoc.

How's that working for you? FWIW, you should call me before you leap to any more conclusions!

Oh Snap!!!
No wonder he keeps Leaping!

​

 

[hg frogman]

1) Whatever high or low your income as a dive instructor is, and however you like your job as an instructor, some parts of it "pay" more than some others (in money and/or in other pleasures than the pleasure of making money). I pointed out that teaching OW course was often much less paid (per hour) than guiding (or doing DSDs, by the way). And the OW course in 4 or even 5 days is hard and intensive teaching if you do it correctly. Then that's no wonder some instructors skip skills while teaching OW course. The cure might be to double the average commission for the OW course (that's the carrot) and to make sure that also dive operations respect the standards (that's the QA's big stick).

The last point can be attained if all agencies agree (otherwise the greedy owner will go to the other agency next door). As someone wrote, "united we stand, divided we fall". Agencies have no real long-term interest in allowing sub-standard practices, unless they want to have their business becoming more regulated by the States.

2) I see no reason to despair about diving (or, more accurately, there are more critical fields around than diving). There are still good dive centers and good instructors. Within PADI and outside of PADI. It's a matter of choice. If you are a democrat, you can't have people (would-be divers, in that case) do what you consider better for them (don't go too cheap, in that case) if they don't want to do it. But you can tell them about your opinion, provided it doesn't take too much of their time .

3) If someone (adequately fit etc.) is motivated to really become a diver, he or she ultimately will be a diver.

 

[DCBC]

Last post before a long stay overseas with no internet

Have a safe trip frogman.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here I am guilty, to a degree. I tend to work with a more homogeneous group in terms of age and academic ability and that makes life much easier. ...

Chances are that this sort of individual would not receive medical clearance. Our medical standards are rather higher than the "just check no to everything" menu that most of the recreational agencies use.
Again, I can not imagine getting this individual medical clearance.

Both came with full medical clearances from their doctors. It really helps the success rate when you can eliminate the problem students from the start.

There's also an old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I hear that a lot. I think it is one of the silliest old sayings in existence. It implies that whatever you are talking about has reached perfection and cannot be improved.

Imagine the Wright brothers flush with victory after their first flight. Orville explains, "You know, I think that if we changed the..." He is interrupted by Wilbur, who says, "Hey! It worked great! We went 100 yards! No one has ever done that any vbetter! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

If computer scientists used this enlightened approach, Univacs the size of large rooms with a fraction of the power of a cell phone would be our best computers.

I have only about 100 hours and 12 open water dives to accomplish my goals. That may seem like a lot to the average recreational instructor, but keep in mind that what we do is create divers who will leave the average recreational instructor in the dust, both in terms of diving knowledge and skills.

I do not question that your course provides a greater level of student ability.

I would also assume that a Harvard biology course designed for Pre-Med students will produce students with more biology knowledge than a good high school biology course. That does not mean the high school course did not accomplish its purpose.

This is false logic predicated on the PADI definition of "mastery." If you go with Glen Egstrom's definition, you are going to have to have, on the order of, 17 repetitions till a skill is truly dependably repeatable, and that takes more time.

Let's look at this more accurately, shall we? Engstrom said that it took 17 repetitions of BUDDY BREATHING to achieve that goal. I am pretty sure it is the only skill he studied. To my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong), he did not generalize it to all skills. I can't imagine anyone arguing that every skill we learn to do is equally difficult. The main conclusion many would draw from Engstrom's study would be in contradiction to those who say that buddy breathing is so easily taight that it should continue to be part of the instructional profgram.

You yourself contradict your own argument when you say that learning to tie a bowline with one hand while wearing a three fingered mitten should still be a requirement for OW because it can be taught so easily and takes so little time.

That's a cop-out. Show me one dictionary entry for "mastery" that lines up with PADI's usage. People know what "mastery" means, it's not what PADI (or maybe even some "educators") pretend(s) that it means.

It is consistent with the modern use of the term in education when referring to the concept of mastery learning. The concept of mastery learning, although it has existed in various forms throughout history, has only become common in educational circles (and many people are still unaware of it) in the past 15-20 years. It's one of those new things you feel you are not required to know.

Dictionaries reflect the definitions of terms as they are used by society. If a word is used a certain way consistently in a language, then it will eventually make it into a dictionary. New uses typically take about 20 years before they make it into a dictionary.

And by the way, it doesn't matter whether it does or not. An organization can choose to define a term for its purposes whenever it wants. It happens all the time.

 

[TCDiver1]

I suppose what I'm saying, is that there often is an alternative to the quick, easy format used by the majority of the diving training providers. People just have to realize that they often have a choice.

Such is life eh?

Envisioning a world with the 100 hour OW course as the norm is very difficult because if it were the norm, sooner or later changes would likely be made to make it more accessible to the masses as it is today. Time/effort would get trimmed and we would be right back to where we are now. Realistically, i just can't see it any other way.

While i respect your opinion and passion for your position, unless you actually had some viable "master plan" that would mandate and enforce 100 hours classes ..... i just don't see it.

You don't have some evil, 100 hour master plan do you? Please don't tell me you work for the Fed.