The Philosophy of Diver Training

[InTheDrink]

Thal,

I doubt anyone thinks your classes are anything but excellent. But they're hardly mass market, are they? And the value is probably as much in you as anything else. Take you out of the equation for a while and the added value dissolves (note: I have no idea about who you teach for, if anyone).

Doing anything small scale is relatively easy.

Doing it on a mass scale, such as PADI, is less easy. Way less easy. And ecomonics plays a HUGE part on whether it's successful or not. And guess what, on a large scale - low cost wins.

I wish everyone in the world was taught the way you teach (or similar ) but it's just not a realistic proposition.

Tell you what - show us what an economically viable version of your course would be? And we're talking bite sized chunks here - most people don't sign up to be black belt master divers - they just want to be able to dive (same as driving). So people aren't going to sign up to your 100 hours course when they're on vacation - or much anywhere else either except perhaps on personal recommendation.

So where's your market? What's your model? Or are you just shouting at the dark?

J

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal,

I doubt anyone thinks your classes are anything but excellent. But they're hardly mass market, are they? And the value is probably as much in you as anything else. Take you out of the equation for a while and the added value dissolves (note: I have no idea about who you teach for, if anyone).

Doing anything small scale is relatively easy.

Doing it on a mass scale, such as PADI, is less easy. Way less easy. And ecomonics plays a HUGE part on whether it's successful or not. And guess what, on a large scale - low cost wins.

I wish everyone in the world was taught the way you teach (or similar ) but it's just not a realistic proposition.

Tell you what - show us what an economically viable version of your course would be? And we're talking bite sized chunks here - most people don't sign up to be black belt master divers - they just want to be able to dive (same as driving). So people aren't going to sign up to your 100 hours course when they're on vacation - or much anywhere else either except perhaps on personal recommendation.

So where's your market? What's your model? Or are you just shouting at the dark?

J

I'm not interested in a mass market, I don't teach to a mass market, I'm not interested in being the GM, Ford, Honda or Toyota of diving, I'm not interested in being the Mercedes or Rolls Royce either. I try to be the McLaren, who builds sports cars that are fast and efficient; comfortable and exhilarating; and (in my case) priced very competitively.
At this point I teach small classes, that run for about three weeks. I teach scientists who need to learn to dive whose schedules do not permit them to train at their home institution; as well as the friends and families of previous students.

As to the value being me ... hardly. Just as I was trained, I've trained lots of instructors, some of whom do a better job than I (as I hope I do a better job than some of my mentors).

 

[InTheDrink]

I'm not interested in a mass market, I don't teach to a mass market, I'm not interested in being the GM, Ford, Honda or Toyota of diving, I'm not interested in being the Mercedes or Rolls Royce either. I try to be the McLaren, who builds sports cars that are fast and efficient; comfortable and exhilarating; and (in my case) priced very competitively.
At this point I teach small classes, that run for about three weeks. I teach scientists who need to learn to dive whose schedules do not permit them to train at their home institution; as well as the friends and families of previous students.

As to the value being me ... hardly. Just as I was trained, I've trained lots of instructors, some of whom do a better job than I (as I hope I do a better job than some of my mentors).

Well if I ever get to spend some time where you or various others on this board live/work I know I'd love to do some training with you - I've a lot to learn and you've a lot to give.

But the point I was making was that comparing a mass organisation, like PADI, to a small one, isn't a reasonable comparison. The way you teach is great but can you apply those training methods realistically, including economic viability, to a larger market. My guess is no. Because people, new people especially, just see price. They still get to see the nice fishies so so what? They don't know they're wrecking the reef. They don't know how infinitely more fun it is to do it when you have some mastery or at least basic control. Trust me, I blanch when I see many new divers and the uncaring way in which they're taught - for example, the simplest, quickest easiest, cost effective thing for any instructor to do would be to say 'don't or try not to use your hands'. This doesn't add more hours or cost any more but yet I don't see it. Many resort instructors that I've seen at least really do not have any good or ill will towards their cares. There really isn't a magister/pedagogue relationship in operation. It's just client and supplier with both focussed on the same aim - least amount of time to depart one another. It's a shocker, no doubt about it.

But how to change it? How to change it?

 

[Walter]

Their opinions mirror others in this thread: other classes are too easy

That's myth. You see it from folks who ridicule classes like the ones I teach. It's simply not true. Longer classes are easier. In my opinion, the typical class today is too hard.

 

[Thalassamania]

Well if I ever get to spend some time where you or various others on this board live/work I know I'd love to do some training with you - I've a lot to learn and you've a lot to give.

But the point I was making was that comparing a mass organisation, like PADI, to a small one, isn't a reasonable comparison. The way you teach is great but can you apply those training methods realistically, including economic viability, to a larger market. My guess is no. Because people, new people especially, just see price. They still get to see the nice fishies so so what? They don't know they're wrecking the reef. They don't know how infinitely more fun it is to do it when you have some mastery or at least basic control. Trust me, I blanch when I see many new divers and the uncaring way in which they're taught - for example, the simplest, quickest easiest, cost effective thing for any instructor to do would be to say 'don't or try not to use your hands'. This doesn't add more hours or cost any more but yet I don't see it. Many resort instructors that I've seen at least really do not have any good or ill will towards their cares. There really isn't a magister/pedagogue relationship in operation. It's just client and supplier with both focussed on the same aim - least amount of time to depart one another. It's a shocker, no doubt about it.

But how to change it? How to change it?

I could easily hack my course up into three chunks, each fairly complete unto itself: freediving skills, basic scuba skills; advanced scuba skills. But what's the point?

 

[InTheDrink]

That's myth. You see it from folks who ridicule classes like the ones I teach. It's simply not true. Longer classes are easier. In my opinion, the typical class today is too hard.

If I'm on the same wavelength as you I would agree completely. The courses I've seen of the conveyor belt variety, are EXTREMELY difficult to learn from. In fact it's pretty baffling. I got to my course and was told I should have read the material beforehand. This was the first I heard of it.

Various skills I missed because of the number of students - the DMs weren't sure who'd done what.

I knew at the time I was missing stuff but I didn't know what I was missing. Which makes it very difficult to say what you've missed.

As I've said lots of times, the PADI course content is adequate but the time allocated to it and the numbers per class make it pretty tough. And I think economically they've got it wrong too because I think a slight adjustment upward towards better skills would have the benefit of higher retention. This of course is just my opinion and I have zero data to back this up.

Problem is though, people just see the cost.

Maybe good agencies should do a Ryanair (very very successful low cost Irish airline) and advertise extremely low fares and then build the yield into add-ons (like choosing your seat etc.). I don't think it will work with diving though.

My buddy is giving the high quality model a blast in Thailand. He's just set up a shop with a really good fast boat, really good new kit, and a very high standard in terms of training. His cost is higher than competitors too. He's wealthy so he can afford to make a loss on this for a while but it will be interesting to see whether better quality training with slightly higher costs actually works as a model.

J

 

[InTheDrink]

I could easily hack my course up into three chunks, each fairly complete unto itself: freediving skills, basic scuba skills; advanced scuba skills. But what's the point?

The point would only be a theoretical one - whether it is possible to create a high quality course into economically viable chunks. To see whether a high quality course could compete on the open market with these McDonald's diving certifications.

I am pretty sure it's nothing you'd want to do, nor would I, but it's just to see how one might create a quality course that had appeal to the mass market in competition to the lowest common denominators like PADI.

J

 

[Web Monkey]

I don't really see any solution to the situation apart from having a low cost high quality agency. But given the metrics that frogman mentioned - it's not really viable is it? The hourly or daily rate is so dire for these resort instructors that it's hard to see how you could increase their hours without their take home pay. So cost again rises.

One way out is for SCUBA instructors to maintain normal jobs for income, and teach SCUBA because they like it.

And before everybody gets their shorts all twisted, being able to make a living teaching SCUBA is a fairly recent invention.

Terry

 

[InTheDrink]

One way out is for SCUBA instructors to maintain normal jobs for income, and teach SCUBA because they like it.

And before everybody gets their shorts all twisted, being able to make a living teaching SCUBA is a fairly recent invention.

Terry

Terry, I have a lot of time for your opinions, but your statement above is completely unworkable as a practical solution. It's a lovely idea, but it has exactly 0% chance of happening so it's only dream talk. Or maybe SB talk. For the thousands of people whose lives are predicated on the dive industry your solution to find something else as a job is nearly too pointless to mention.

Not that any jabbering here is going to do a hell of a lot of good but wishing that people didn't work in scuba as full time jobs is wishful thinking in the extreme, no matter what is was like a few years ago. EDIT: Scuba is an industry - nothing apart from economics will turn it back into a pastime. It's too enjoyable, people like it - i.e. there is a market. Therefore people will buy and sell it. With that comes professionalism especially cos of the market size. Amateurism in diving instruction is a nice idea, but outdated in the world we currently live in.

J

 

[Thalassamania]

Terry has a point. The "career" of being a diving "pro" is a fairly recent invention designed, by and large I think, to sell "pro" classes so that a few CDs can make enough to scrape by on the backs of those whom dream to the dive bum life, so that agencies can crank out new instructors and to assure that shops have such an oversupply that they never have to pay a living wage.