The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

Its not a quibble when you say that you can fail someone for not being able to use Altitude tables and yet the standards allow the diver to use something else.

You can't have it both ways.

Like Diver0001

Its a standards issue, but you will blame the instructor.

I don't get the standards issue you are referring to. The instructor can specify what is acceptable for their class: PDC or tables. The student has to "safely plan" or they don't pass. It's pretty cut and dried.

 

[TechBlue]

and whats your point?

Golf and scuba and not even close to be used as a comparison.

or are you trying to be funny?

A bit off both, golf pros have managed to maintain good living out of teaching golf, yet scuba has taken the opposite route, mass marketing, high volume low profit for training. Golfers have no problem at all paying well for classes and they find the time why could the same not be applied to scuba?

 

[boulderjohn]

If one is training in an altitude environment, then additional focus on altitude diving is required by the course standards as the students must participate in planning their OW dives.

But he is asking if it is "testable"...i.e. Can I fail the student if he/she doesn't get it.

If they can't safely dive in their local environment, then yes, you can fail the student.

Does it say that? (In the standards?)

I know that my instructor taught us the altitude adjustments for tables for our OW dives. (Done in Jasper AB...4000ft elevation) But fail someone or use it as an excuse to fail someone???...That just doesn't sound right. (It didn't happen..so I have no way of knowing.)

First of all, we don't "fail" students; we keep teaching them until they meet the standard.

In their OW dives, students must participate in the planning, and they must log the dives. If the dives are at altitude, they must include the altitude corrections. That means they must make that adjustment to complete the requirements of the standard.

Making those adjustments is absurdly easy, so to talk about the potential for failing a student for not being able to do it is ludicrous. A student who can't make an altitude adjustment using an altitude table after about 30 seconds of instruction could not possibly have gotten that far in the course in the first place.

By the way, it is interesting to compare that with the altitude instructions from other agencies. As I understand it from a direct quote from JJ, GUE believes altitude should be considered in dive planning but has no specific policy regarding it. The quote I read said dives should be planned more conservatively, but offers nothing more specific than that. UTD says that altitude does not matter so there is no point in considering it. Do a decompression dive at 11,000 feet? No need to make any adjustments at all.

 

[DCBC]

I quoted the post to which I was asking for sources. DCBC made absolute statements. I could not find those statements in any of the PADI books I borrowed from a friend. If these are facts, they may be cited by manual and page. Otherwise, the statements are opinions presented as facts . . . a logic flaw.

My statements were made as a result of PADI HQ censoring me that this is the way it is... I simply related the instructions I received from PADI HQ. Given that the author was PADI HQ I accepted them as a statement of fact, so I don't really feel that it falls into the realm of a "logical flaw."

Given this was several years ago, I cannot state that this is the current state of PADI Standards. It is does not however mean I misrepresented anything, as this was what I was specifically told, to wit:

1. Rescue of a submerged victim had no place in a PADI OW class and its inclusion was a breach of PADI Standards.

2. Altitude Tables had no place in a PADI OW class and its inclusion was a breach of PADI Standards.

3. I would not be covered by PADI liability insurance for anything that was not specifically outlined within PADI Standards and as such, I would be open to personal liability.

4. I was not to test/examine on anything that wasn't specifically outlined within PADI Standards and this was to be the only criteria to determine PADI OW certification.

 

[The Chairman]

In that case, you have not told a lie, you have made a mistake.

Walter. If a statement is categorically false, can you describe it as a "lie"? Of course you can. From Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com

lie

1   /laɪ/ Show Spelled [lahy] Show IPA noun, verb,lied, ly·ing.
–noun1.a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

2.something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.

3.an inaccurate or false statement.

4.the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.

Take a gander at #3 where there is no intent to deceive. Now, you can argue with the dictionary all you want JUST to win the point, but the intended use lies within normal spoken English. No one was called a liar by the individual statements being referred to as lies. It's just a ruse to garner sympathy and to play the martyr card. Just more shenanigans.

 

[JeffG]

I don't get the standards issue you are referring to. The instructor can specify what is acceptable for their class: PDC or tables. The student has to "safely plan" or they don't pass. It's pretty cut and dried.

Ask Kingpatzer. He said they are there and what he says doesn't jive with the standards he posts.

So its not cut and dried at all.

If there is a ton of "wiggle" room such that 10 instructors come up with different solutions/results for a problem...the there really is no such thing as a "Standard"

 

[The Chairman]

My statements were made as a result of PADI HQ censoring me that this is the way it is...

One wonders if you displayed the same level of tact and humility that you present us with now? I also wonder how flummoxed the guy at HQ was in trying to get you to understand the difference?

 

[The Chairman]

If there is a ton of "wiggle" room such that 10 instructors come up with different solutions/results for a problem...the there really is no such thing as a "Standard"

Which can be said for EVERY agency, n'est pas?

 

[DCBC]

In their OW dives, students must participate in the planning, and they must log the dives. If the dives are at altitude, they must include the altitude corrections. That means they must make that adjustment to complete the requirements of the standard.

This makes sense John, as I'm now on the east coast, tide tables seem to be more of an issue and these are not as easy to decipher by the student. Testing/evaluation on these are mandatory in my current programs. If I was a PADI Instructor and a student failed to show he possessed the requisite skill-set, would PADI uphold me testing the student and refraining certification until it was successfully completed? Is this specifically mentioned in the current Standards? Please substantiate your answer.

I understand your past comments. I felt as you did until I received the call from PADI HQ. Obviously they convinced me that the "way it was" was different than my perception of reality.

 

[Walter]

I took you, MB and another guy on your first dive in Blue Spring.

December 30, 2001. The other guy was Moo.

I might have taken a swipe or two at PADI here on ScubaBoard. Call me a reformed basher if you must.

Nope. It had nothing to do with their training or their standards. It had to do with a situation in which a special forum was created by the previous owner of ScubaBoard.

No, you are not correct. I do not know why you would have made that assumption.

I quoted the post to which I was asking for sources. DCBC made absolute statements. I could not find those statements in any of the PADI books I borrowed from a friend. If these are facts, they may be cited by manual and page. Otherwise, the statements are opinions presented as facts . . . a logic flaw.

Which books did you borrow?

I'm not assuming, I'm guessing and freely admitting my guess may have missed the mark. I made that guess because that was part of the very long post you quoted and the rest of it seemed pretty clear that they came from standards when he was a PADI instructor and from conversations with people at PADI headquarters. He clearly stated things may have changed and was looking for current infiormation on those points.

I'm still guessing as to exactly what you want to know. My guess is now about this:

1. No PADI Instructor may test (use the term evaluate if this helps you understand the intent of the word "test") on anything outside of the PADI Standards to determine if a diver may be certified.

2. If a Student meets the knowledge and skill-sets outlined within PADI Standards, s/he must be certified.

3. A PADI Instructor who teaches outside of PADI Standards is not covered by PADI liability insurance for anything added to the PADI Standards.

If that's your question - then 1 and 3 I can't help. I have no knowledge of those items. 2 is in the standards. I'll be happy to find and quote it for you when I return home tonight.

If I guessed wrong again, please be more specific.