The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Crush]

It's too bad that the other certification organizations doesn't get together, make-up a chart of the real differences between all of the training programs and collectively advertise it to the public. I cannot help but believe that the average guy who walks into a dive shop has no idea about what he's buying and how this may affect the safety and security of his family.

I hereby volunteer to make a list of ACUC requirements for basic-OW. Should we agree on a list of fields and how to organize the requirements? Perhaps if someone posts, say, NAUI requirements I can re-format the ACUC requirements into the same outline so as to be able to make a table.

 

[TechBlue]

No doubt about it, PADI is the 500lb gorilla in dive training but in the pursuit of the almighty dollar they continue to degenerate and reduce training requirements rather than improve, rather than other agencies having to point out the deficencies of the PADI training programmes (negative marketing is never a good idea) what a refereshing change it would be for PADI to take a good inward look and get back to what this is all about, promoting a wonderful sport and maintaining standards and procedures to ensure that students get the benefits of quality training at every level rather than being hammered from day one with continuing education to squeeze every last possible dime out of them before they give up and in many cases never dive again.

 

[TCDiver1]

All this weeping and gnashing of teeth regarding PADI is really all for naught. You can rewrite OW standards to a higher level if you want but it's already been done. GUE comes to mind in that regard.

PADI is a for profit company. Like it or not they've had the best business model in diving for years from a corporate standpoint. If a non-profit business model was the best way to go NAUI would be the 1000 lb gorilla in the room and not PADI. After all NAUI arguably had the more thorough entry level program, especially through most of PADI's major growth years when NAUI was non-profit.


You want to blame someone for the current state of affairs, blame the people buying the courses.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's what bothers me as well Bob. All PADI courses are generally inferior to other certification agencies; not in the quality of instruction given, rather the quantity. So even when they stand head to head, a PADI instructor can offer a supposedly similar program for less, which makes competition hard to begin with. When PADI downgrades the training even further, it becomes even more frustrating.

It's too bad that the other certification organizations doesn't get together, make-up a chart of the real differences between all of the training programs and collectively advertise it to the public. I cannot help but believe that the average guy who walks into a dive shop has no idea about what he's buying and how this may affect the safety and security of his family.

Walter did just that several years ago and it was published online. PADI sued him. They lost, of course ... but it cost Walter a couple years of time and aggravation to fend them off.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TechBlue]

All this weeping and gnashing of teeth regarding PADI is really all for naught. You can rewrite OW standards to a higher level if you want but it's already been done. GUE comes to mind in that regard.

PADI is a for profit company. Like it or not they've had the best business model in diving for years from a corporate standpoint. If a non-profit business model was the best way to go NAUI would be the 1000 lb gorilla in the room and not PADI. After all NAUI arguably had the more thorough entry level program, especially through most of PADI's major growth years when NAUI was non-profit.


You want to blame someone for the current state of affairs, blame the people buying the courses.

Best business model for whom their business model seems more like a Where the f**k are we bird which flies in ever decreasing circles until it disappears up it's own ass, which from what I can tell is happening because despite the marketing machine the only way they can attract new divers is by lowering standards and age requirements.

As we've already discussed the new guys have no idea what they are buying into, the agencies need to police themselves.

And if you believe in the power of one, maybe it is not all for naught

 

[Kingpatzer]

I hereby volunteer to make a list of ACUC requirements for basic-OW. Should we agree on a list of fields and how to organize the requirements? Perhaps if someone posts, say, NAUI requirements I can re-format the ACUC requirements into the same outline so as to be able to make a table.

To what end? Without a marketing campaign you will not be reaching the non-diving public. And they are the ones who are buying scuba training. If you don't create a significant demand for training from these other agencies, nothing will change. Ever.

Make tables, rewrite standards on the message boards, argue and whine. But without meaningful action it's so much navel gazing.

We keep hearing that these quality agencies operate with significant instructor input and that the instructors have a huge say in what they do. Where is the hue and cry for a coordinate joint marketing attack? All the energy going into slamming PADI is really quite misdirected. It reminds me in some ways of the European nations complaining about the economic hegemony of the United States prior to the formation of the EU. The capacity to do something is there, develop the will to do it rather than complaining about another organization for being successful.

 

[TechBlue]

Walter did just that several years ago and it was published online. PADI sued him. They lost, of course ... but it cost Walter a couple years of time and aggravation to fend them off.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Figures....so what was the outcome? Is Walter's comparison available or did they squash it?

 

[Walter]

It's too bad that the other certification organizations doesn't get together, make-up a chart of the real differences between all of the training programs and collectively advertise it to the public.

I wrote such a comparison around 1998. My comparison only included 3 agencies - PADI, NAUI and YMCA. The owner (Eddie) of a now defunct website - Diverlink - heard about my comparison and asked permission to publish it. When it was published, he wrote to all the agencies he could locate, including the three already included, asking them to participate by providing us with current standards and feed back. Most of the agencies never responded. YMCA was the only agency that agreed to participate. After a few e-mail exchanges, YMCA and I were in complete agreement that the comparison accurately represented YMCA's standards. YMCA worked with me a short time later to incorporate changes they'd made to their standards.

YMCA also used my comparison when they were looking at standards changes. They actually adopted a standard they'd overlooked but was part of PADI standards - breathing through a free flowing regulator. YMCA used the comparison to improve.

Over a year later, PADI (or their lawyer, I can't remember right now) sent a certified letter to Diverlink complaining about the comparison. In the letter, they had a very long list of issues they had with the comparison. Eddie responded that if they were parts of the comparison that were not accurate, we would work with PADI to ensure the problems were fixed.

At that point, I worked with a woman in PADI headquarters to eliminate disagreements over what was and what was not required by PADI standards. There were a few problems where I had missed some requirements which I immediately fixed. Most of the disagreements were over skills they claimed to require but which were not in the standards. After about 2 - 2½ months, we reached an agreement that the comparison accurately represented PADI's standards.

About a week later, Eddie received a letter from the lady at PADI complaining about the comparison with the original list of issues. I wrote back to her in attempt to initiate a repeat of the process we'd just completed. She did not reply. Instead, one of PADI's attorneys wrote to Eddie demanding the comparison be changed to reflect PADI requiring skills they did not actually require (my words, not theirs) or that PADI be removed from the comparison.

Shortly after that, PADI filed suit against Diverlink in California. I was never named in the suit, but did receive two subpoenas. One was to give a deposition, the other was to provide documents for PADI to copy.

I complied with both subpoenas. When I arrived at the appointed time and place with the required documents, PADI had no representative present to receive them. PADI then tried to have me held in contempt of court because they didn't get the documents.

PADI's suit was eventually dismissed by the judge in federal court. PADI appealed. PADI lost the appeal. My attorney's fees were over $3000. Eddie's attorney's fees were over $197,000 prior to the appeal. I don't remember what they were after the appeal. I have no idea how much PADI's fees might have been. Fortunately, PADI was ordered to pay my attorney's fees as well as Diverlink's.

While I would love to see your proposal come about, I doubt it's likely.

I cannot help but believe that the average guy who walks into a dive shop has no idea about what he's buying and how this may affect the safety and security of his family.

I agree

I hereby volunteer to make a list of ACUC requirements for basic-OW. Should we agree on a list of fields and how to organize the requirements? Perhaps if someone posts, say, NAUI requirements I can re-format the ACUC requirements into the same outline so as to be able to make a table.

Unless we can get Consumer Reports to publish it, I wouldn't recommend it. Defending the study will take deep pockets. I suspect that's what some are counting on.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Best business model for whom

What's PADI's market penetration compared to everyone else?

Eventually the monopolistic giants fall, that's just economic reality. PADI may have reached the point of market saturation where they have to contract simply because of their own size, particularly as the market for scuba diving changes.


And markets for vacation activities do change, rising and falling in popularity. Once the big travel destination was to visit hot springs and lounge in the spas. That market still exists but is exponentially smaller as a percentage of the population than it was in it's heyday.

There are plenty of possible explanations for the impacts your seeing that have nothing to do with standards and which are universal business principles.

 

[Walter]

Is Walter's comparison available or did they squash it?

PADI did not squash it, but the website on which it was published is now defunct. I have a copy and I'll be happy to send it to you. It is out of date and does not reflect standards changes since it was published. If anyone wants a copy, send a PM to me requesting it with your e-mail address.