The "other" end of the DIR question

[Boogie711]

C'mon Boogie - don't clip my sentences to help make your point. What I said was, "However, no matter how skilled a DIR diver you are, those decisions have already been made for you and you have no say in the matter". Yes, you have the option of diving DIR or not - I never said otherwise. What I did say was that as DIR, you have no choice in how you rig and what style (not brand) of equipment you use...

YES I DO!

I think you and I are just coming at this from different ends. A) Just for the record, I'm not DIR, But if I were...

B) I DO have a choice. I have a world of choice. And that diver CHOOSES to be DIR. No one is forced to be DIR. You can choose to dive like that style or not. For anyone to insinuate a LACK of choice is over complexifying the issue.

By the way, I also think your comment "and if someone doesn't want to dive with me because of where I wear my guages, well, that says enough about that person that I don't want to dive with them..." is a little off base. First, I've never had or seen any DIR diver choose not to dive with someone because of where they wear their gauges.

Look, you can choose to accept this for what it's worth, or you can choose to ignore it, but - it's NOT about gear configuration. It's about an entire system. And clearly, you choose to dive in a manner that doesn't work with their system. Just like you wouldn't want to buddy with a rebreather diver - you probably don't want to buddy with a DIR diver then either. It's not just console vs. wrist mount. It's knowing where to look on your body for depth information pressure in the event of an emergency and my bottom timer crapping out.

Your analogy is rather akin to saying "I'm a helicopter pilot, but I won't fly in the same cockpit as that guy over there because he has blue pants." Now, maybe in your particular circle, blue pants mean that he's only qualified to fly Cessna's, and not helicopters. Now, are you really refusing to fly with the guy because of what color pants he wears? Of course not - you're not going to fly with him because you employ vastly different skill sets and flying philosophies. That's not to say he can't fly helicopters - he just chooses not to get the formal training. Now, if the blue pants dude goes off and pouts "He won't fly with me because of what color my pants are" how accurate is that statement?

 

[pipedope]

Personally.... Cool. Then those that wish to consider themselves DIR need to come up with a new name, and we won't have to hear the daily complaints about the offensiveness of the DIR name.

You missed the point.

HALCYON OWNS the name DIR.

All of the arguements trying to separate DIR and HALCYON are BS.

DIR is a fine system and has a lot to reccomend it but let's be honest about it at least.

Probably the biggest plus for DIR is that it is a fairly complete system. The hard decisions as to technique and equipment are made for the diver when he (she) does not yet have the training and experience to make those choices himself. This saves the diver lots of tiem and money trying things that they end up not using but it also results in a rather monochromatic experience set.

There was at least one commercial diving school that taught every diving helmet that was in manufacture and common use at the time, some 37 or so different hats.
Why did they do that?
First, it is good training and experience to learn the different equipment so as to be able to make a better choice of gear for purchase and for any particular job.
Second, a diver may be on a job and be expected to get the job done with the equipment at hand. The working diver must be able to use the gear and finish the job if it can be done with a resonable margin of safety. A diver who has only been in one kind of equipment is not ready to make those kind of choices. He can choose to simply not dive in gear other than his first choice, in which case he will have a short commercial career.

DIR divers have no job that needs to get done so it doesn't really matter, they can always choose to not dive.

 

[jonnythan]

Whatever.

DIR predates Halcyon and exists completely independently of it. Who cares.

 

[jonnythan]

Oh yeah, what does commercial diving have to do with rec diving? How does one relate to the other in any way besides they both involve breathing underwater?

 

[Spectre]

You missed the point.

HALCYON OWNS the name DIR.

All of the arguements trying to separate DIR and HALCYON are BS.

Oh no. I see your point. However the point I'm trying to make is... well, let's try this. Donald Trump wants to copyright [trademark, patent, whatever, I never know which is which] "You're fired". Does that mean that the concept of terminating ones employment will be owned by Donald Trump, or just those words used in a certain context.

It comes back to the whole equipment argument. Halcyon started as a way to provide divers equipment that fit into the DIR principles. Does that mean that those companies that came after, providing similiar equipment, should be allowed to market it as "DIR"? *shrug* I don't know, I don't care... it really has nothing to do with it. I could care less if a piece of equipment can be marketed by a company as "DIR" or not.

If people want to see DIR as a marketing ploy to sell gear can go ahead and go for it, I couldn't care in the slightest. It can be explained over and over again and they still won't see the difference between the hype and the actual point behind the gear recommendations. It's not the 'what' that's important, it's the 'why' that's important.

 

[pipedope]

Whatever.

DIR predates Halcyon and exists completely independently of it. Who cares.

Maybe you should read a little more.

HALCYON Owns the TRADEMARK DIR.

Is that not clear?
How can they be completely independent?

I would buy the arguement much more if it had been GUE to apply for the trademark.

 

[jonnythan]

Maybe you should read a little more.

HALCYON Owns the TRADEMARK DIR.

Is that not clear?
How can they be completely independent?

I would buy the arguement much more if it had been GUE to apply for the trademark.

They might have trademarked the three letters used in reference to diving, but they don't own DIR, and DIR is totally separate from Halcyon.

Is *that* not clear?

 

[pipedope]

Oh yeah, what does commercial diving have to do with rec diving? How does one relate to the other in any way besides they both involve breathing underwater?

You want to completely ignore the massive diving experience built up in the commercial world?

If you want to get ALL of your information from one source then fine. Just don't try to tell me you are doing your best in the interest of safety.

BTW Even though commercial diving is done is all conditions at all times doing work that is dangerous even out of the water the safety record (at least in the USA) is better than sport diving. Does this mean that *everybody* should be diving commercial equipment and procedures? Heck NO! It does means that the commercial world is doing something right. You might actually learn something by looking at how things are done on the commercial side.

 

[gj62]

YES I DO!

I think you and I are just coming at this from different ends. A) Just for the record, I'm not DIR, But if I were...

B) I DO have a choice. I have a world of choice. And that diver CHOOSES to be DIR. No one is forced to be DIR. You can choose to dive like that style or not. For anyone to insinuate a LACK of choice is over complexifying the issue.

By the way, I also think your comment "and if someone doesn't want to dive with me because of where I wear my guages, well, that says enough about that person that I don't want to dive with them..." is a little off base. First, I've never had or seen any DIR diver choose not to dive with someone because of where they wear their gauges.

Look, you can choose to accept this for what it's worth, or you can choose to ignore it, but - it's NOT about gear configuration. It's about an entire system. And clearly, you choose to dive in a manner that doesn't work with their system. Just like you wouldn't want to buddy with a rebreather diver - you probably don't want to buddy with a DIR diver then either. It's not just console vs. wrist mount. It's knowing where to look on your body for depth information pressure in the event of an emergency and my bottom timer crapping out.

Your analogy is rather akin to saying "I'm a helicopter pilot, but I won't fly in the same cockpit as that guy over there because he has blue pants." Now, maybe in your particular circle, blue pants mean that he's only qualified to fly Cessna's, and not helicopters. Now, are you really refusing to fly with the guy because of what color pants he wears? Of course not - you're not going to fly with him because you employ vastly different skill sets and flying philosophies. That's not to say he can't fly helicopters - he just chooses not to get the formal training. Now, if the blue pants dude goes off and pouts "He won't fly with me because of what color my pants are" how accurate is that statement?

Boogie - this has devolved into a semantic tangle.

Hey, choices always exist - and yes, you CHOOSE to be DIR.
But once you choose, by definition there are a number of things you MUST accept, or you really aren't DIR. DIS sounds like it grew out of the desire to adopt many of the fine principles embodied by DIR (but by no means were many of the created by DIR), but allow more personal choice to be involved.

According to JJ & MHK, to be DIR, you MUST wear rig your gear in a specific way (this includes guage positioning). As the founder and a key instructor, this speaks volumes about the program. Perhaps you know divers that call themselves DIR that allow for more flexibility, but that is not the official line. Both (JJ & MHK) are clear and on record on the point that if I am not rigged & trained as a DIR diver, they won't dive with me.

Of course DIR is more of a "system" than just a rigging technique - you can't have heard about DIR more than once without knowing this - but the rig, and their inflexibility regarding *my* rig - is certainly one of the most visible manifestations of the dogmatic principles that guide DIR.

 

[gj62]

They might have trademarked the three letters used in reference to diving, but they don't own DIR, and DIR is totally separate from Halcyon.

Is *that* not clear?

Not only is it not clear, it isn't true either.

JJ sits atop both organizations - how can you honestly say they are totally separate? What's more, he knowingly had the commercial entity trademark the common name of the techniques, through which Halcyon gains a competitive advantage and benefits financially.

While this is not definitive, note that on GUE's website, a search for Halcyon turns up 250 pages. Oxycheq = 0, DiveRite = 5. Of course, Halcyon and GUE are not related in any - yeah right...