The "other" end of the DIR question

[Uncle Pug]

It is much better for you to moderate yourselves than to have the Moderators moderate you. Personal attacks are inappropriate as is baiting others into personally attacking you so that you can tattle-tell to the moderators.

If you want to talk about why you are not purple then fine. But don't expect the purple people to sit by quietly especially if you start making untrue statements about the color purple.

Argue all you want... just don't resort to personal attacks or baiting personal attacks.

And just so you know I really dislike tattle-tales: I am more likely to zap someone for baiting others into a personal attack than the one who rose to the bait.

 

[lamont]

Oh please, get over the insecure thing - that's a BS response everytime...

I used both JJ and MHK to illustrate that the LEADERSHIP of GUE and key proponents of DIR have specifically stated that this is an "all or nothing" proposition. I chose to speak in the first person, but I could have said, "they would not dive with a non-DIR diver", rather than, "they would not dive with me".

Okay, well its easy to illustrate then. The gear that their buddies are diving with is gear that they are relying on. Therefore they feel that they have say in how that gear is configured. They also feel that for the diving they do that their say in how their buddies gear is configured is vitally important in how safe they are. Given that this philosophy was developed out of diving 5 miles into a cave system, I'm certainly not going to argue with their choice over what gear thier buddies have. When was the last time that you dove that far into a cave?

 

[gj62]

Who cares if they are all intertwined? If you don't like it go out and buy Oxycheq, FredT or DiveRite gear.

Lamont - you must be trolling here - either that, or too lazy to read the thread.

Jonnythan said they weren't related - I was merely pointing out the error.

Of course, I think any diver should care if the relationship *could* influence GUE equipment decisions/recommendations, etc.

Historically on this thread, you've mostly chosen to take specific sentences out of context to question/berate the poster.

For the 2nd post in a row, you've asked, "Why do you care..." I suggest that it would be much more enlightening/helpful to tell us why *you* don't care. BTW, in the two cases above, if you bothered to read my previous points in this thread, you would know the answers to the questions you asked (which is generally that I don't care, I was just pointing out errors or inconsistencies)...

 

[gj62]

Okay, well its easy to illustrate then. The gear that their buddies are diving with is gear that they are relying on. Therefore they feel that they have say in how that gear is configured. They also feel that for the diving they do that their say in how their buddies gear is configured is vitally important in how safe they are. Given that this philosophy was developed out of diving 5 miles into a cave system, I'm certainly not going to argue with their choice over what gear thier buddies have. When was the last time that you dove that far into a cave?

This is my last response to you on this thread, unless it becomes clear that've bothered to read the previous posts.

1) I didn't ask a question, so I don't know what you are illustrating.

2) I'm not a cave diver, and have no interest in becoming one. That said, I'm on record in this post saying that if I were to do cave/technical diving, I would consider diving DIR.

3) Since this thread is ABOUT why I am NOT a DIR diver, I gave as one of my reasons the fact that I think it is foolish in most rec OW conditions to have these requirements. To the extent that the founder & strong proponents are on record that they would not dive anywhere with anyone who was not diving DIR, I have suggested that such a dogmatic system is too restrictive for most people that are interested in rec diving.

Finally, to repeat in case you missed it, I find it nothing short of comical to apply the same requirements to a rec dive as for a 5-mile cave penetration on the basis of safety, yet daily ride in an automobile, where your chances of a fatal accident are much greater than diving a 60' reef in a rec rig...

 

[Lead_carrier]

If any non-DIR divers still want to answer the question "why haven't YOU taken up DIR?" you are free to do so - practically flame-free if you are the same.

Simply put. I don't qualify physcially, I don't like a bp/wings. With these two disqualifiers I don't even qualify to take the course so that's 2 reasons I can't/won't do DIR.

 

[diverbrian]

It is much better for you to moderate yourselves than to have the Moderators moderate you. Personal attacks are inappropriate as is baiting others into personally attacking you so that you can tattle-tell to the moderators.

If you want to talk about why you are not purple then fine. But don't expect the purple people to sit by quietly especially if you start making untrue statements about the color purple.

Argue all you want... just don't resort to personal attacks or baiting personal attacks.

And just so you know I really dislike tattle-tales: I am more likely to zap someone for baiting others into a personal attack than the one who rose to the bait.

You're supposed to nail the people who retaliate and miss the cheap shot that happens to start the relaliation .

Seriously, I feel that most of the people in this thread have shown considerable respect for the "other side" (no matter which side of the fence that they sit on).

Personally, I don't care about the "corporate conspiracy" with Halycon, GUE, DIR, or whatever. It is a diver's choice to dive how they wish in the rig that they wish to dive in.

I have a quick disconnect on on my harness for instance. This is simply for ease of getting out of it on land. I recogonize a small risk of another failure point. I choose to take it because I figure that it is a very small risk. This is an example. If I were to go "by the book", I couldn't use that rig in a DIRf class having read the standards. I have other small inconsistencies with my gear that prevent me from being DIR, but somebody not familar with the concepts would think that my doubles set-up is DIR. It is not!

Like LeadCarrier and some of the others here, I happen to like my jacket BC for a casual dive. That prevents me from being DIR.

But, I am starting to incorporate the slow ascents (as I understand them) into my dive profiles. I pay more attention to my dives to learn from them. I don't know if this is DIR or simply good diving practices. I don't personally care. Maybe, I'll see some of you over on the DIR side in time. I doubt it, as I don't completely buy into any system. I take what I like out of most things and leave the rest by the wayside.

Let's have informative conversation, not member or idea bashing, shall we?

Now, back to our regularly scheduled fig..., er... ah.. debate.

 

[Essroc123]

All,

This indeed brings up a decent question.

The number one rule for DIR(I think). Is to not dive with "strokes".

Does the DIR camp think that all "rec" divers are strokes? I think that the obvious answer to that question is no. It depends on the individual divers attitude.

But let me ask this then.....

If I (hypothetically speaking here) buy all Halcyon gear and become a DIR diver. Will I be shunned by the recreational crowd? Does the fact that I dive a specific way exclude me from either tec or rec crowds?

This is a fascinating thread guys....thanks a million!!!

Safe Dives,

Will Johnson

 

[HammerNoMore]

If I (hypothetically speaking here) buy all Halcyon gear and become a DIR diver. Will I be shunned by the recreational crowd?

Only if you become one of the vocal minority discussed earlier.

James

 

[H2Andy]

Only if you become one of the vocal minority discussed earlier

and that depends more on your personality than on what level of training you have or what your diving preferences are.

if you are a dork, you are going to be a dork whether you
dive PADI or DIR.

 

[MHK]

I'm always curious to hear divers discuss their reasons why they are not into DIR, I think it's a useful exercise so I thank those that have taken the time to respond.

We appreciate that DIR isn't for everyone and it is important to note that GUE was created to cater to a diver that is seeking a higher standard and a less flexible focus respecting diving. We fully recognize that this will eliminate the vast majority of divers, but our efforts are aimed at resisting catering to the least common denominator and will continue to resist temptation to be more "relaxed" with respect to gear choices and other compromises that may adversly effect the holistic nature of the system. Reviewing this thread only served to reinforce my belief that DIR, despite it's prominence on most of the scuba boards, is still very much misunderstood by many. I'm confident there is a wide variety of reasons for this and I suspect each diver has their own reason, as evidenced by this thread. That being said, I do still notice a view towards a concern about a conflict respecting JJ's dual role at Halcyon and GUE. About a year or so ago Jarrod addressed the issue on the GUE instructor list and I've asked his permission to post a excerpt of his response. The following is from Jarrod Jablonski:

"There are those that claim such choices are made simply to sell more Halcyon equipment. That saddens me but it is to be expected. My efforts in GUE have never been along these lines. Yet, it is important to openly recognize that GUE's ties to Halcyon are natural. GUE and Halcyon have the same genealogy; they came from our experiences as instructors and underwater explorers. Moreover, Halcyon was created in order to fulfill an equipment need that was not being satisfied elsewhere. GUE and Halcyon strive in very different ways to facilitate divers who wish to dive in a DIR manner. That has and always will be the case. Other groups now seeking to capitalize on our efforts are simply profit-seeking in a niche they poorly understand. That is only problematic as long as they do it poorly. Otherwise it is of little concern to you as a GUE instructor. Options are available that allow divers to avoid Halcyon entirely. You, as a GUE instructor, may take advantage of these options but apologies for Halcyon's association with GUE are unnecessary."

I'm confident that there wil always be some that ascribe alternative motives and to those divers I wish them the best of luck. I know Jarrod very well, and consider him a close friend, and having the benefit of knowing him as I do I'm confident his intentions are pure and honest, and I suspect anyone that knows JJ would say the same, but we do exsist in a competitive marketplace so it makes little sense to try to change a mind predisposed to a point of view.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Michael Kane