The LDS of the future

[Rich Keller]

About $200
Basic ones without O2 connectors go for about $200.

Not in my experience. I usually see people use the shop equipment. Getting your own is about $300.So for an investment of a mere $700 anyone who already has a lot of experience and knows the mathematical formula can make their own nitrox.

EDIT: I forgot to ask where they get the grade E air to top it off.

Scuba tank O2 fill is about $20 not $200.

The cross over whip would be scuba to scuba so no O2 connections are needed. I actually use and old school manifold that was used to connect two single tanks with valves into a set of doubles. Connect the tanks and attach your reg in the middle so you can use the SPG to monitor the pressure. You can find one of these on ebay for about $25.

Best price I could find on a tester was $170 again on ebay.

The math is easy when you break it down to cubic feet. For example 500psi will translate to how many cu/ft in the size tank you are filling? The other 2500psi at an 80/20 mix will break down to how many cu/ft of additional O2? The total cu/ft of O2 divided by the total cu/ft of the tank gives you the percent. This is not like mixing rocket fuel.

The rest of the gas comes from the dive shop.

So for about $200 in equipment & a $20 O2 fill, not a mere $700, you can get nitrox fills in an area where none are available or on a dive charter that has a compressor but is not equipped for nitrox. This will not save you money vs a shop nitrox fill unless that shop is seriously overcharging but it gives you the ability to get a nitrox fill where none is available.

Edit: To get back to the actual point of this discussion with very little effort a diver today can find all the alternatives he needs to the LDS and these options will only increase as time goes on. The dive shops and manufactures digging in their heels to prevent the change that is already here are just turning up the dirt that they will be buried under in the coming decade.

 

[boulderjohn]

if your LDS can afford it/figure it out - odds are you can too.

As I said earlier in this thread, it all depends on where you are. If you have a lot of local diving, then the base osts are distributed among a large number of divers. In our area, over 95% of the gas fills are in shops to support instruction. There is very little local diving being done. Here the LDS, every one of them, loses money on fill operations, hoping to make it up through the other aspects of running a scuba operation.

Scuba tank O2 fill is about $20 not $200.

The tanks aren't free. Before you can get a tank dedicated to O2 filled, you have to own a tank.

The cross over whip would be scuba to scuba so no O2 connections are needed. I actually use and old school manifold that was used to connect two single tanks with valves into a set of doubles. Connect the tanks and attach your reg in the middle so you can use the SPG to monitor the pressure. You can find one of these on ebay for about $25.

Right. All you need is the old manifold and some old regulators you happen to have hanging around. Everybody has those. Those don't cost anything at all.

The rest of the gas comes from the dive shop.

I thought we were talking about getting this stuff done when the dive shops go out of business. You said that yourself:

Edit: To get back to the actual point of this discussion with very little effort a diver today can find all the alternatives he needs to the LDS and these options will only increase as time goes on. The dive shops and manufactures digging in their heels to prevent the change that is already here are just turning up the dirt that they will be buried under in the coming decade.

So, to summarize your points, all we have to do is use all the old equipment we have hanging around and have no other use for and the LDS that doedsn't exist any more, and we can get it done for practically nothing.

 

[redacted]

As I said earlier in this thread, it all depends on where you are. If you have a lot of local diving, then the base osts are distributed among a large number of divers. In our area, over 95% of the gas fills are in shops to support instruction. There is very little local diving being done. Here the LDS, every one of them, loses money on fill operations, hoping to make it up through the other aspects of running a scuba operation.

Your LDSs do not lose $$ on their fill operation any more than you loose $$ on the computer you use for work. Sure, they are not pumping gas for a direct profit like many LDS do that have active local diving. Their compressors are their to support their training and to allow them, in most cases, to even be a dive shop. I can believe that it is only the minority of shops that make a direct profit selling enough gas to offset their compressor operations. But the claim that any viable shop is losing $$ on it's compressor(s) and would be better off without them is nonsense. If that were true, then there would be more LDSs that buy their gas elsewhere rather than pumping their own.

 

[Rich Keller]

The tanks aren't free. Before you can get a tank dedicated to O2 filled, you have to own a tank.

Right. All you need is the old manifold and some old regulators you happen to have hanging around. Everybody has those. Those don't cost anything at all.

I thought we were talking about getting this stuff done when the dive shops go out of business. You said that yourself:

So, to summarize your points, all we have to do is use all the old equipment we have hanging around and have no other use for and the LDS that doedsn't exist any more, and we can get it done for practically nothing.

You can O2 clean any tank you already own.

Anyone diving nitrox already has an O2 clean reg and the type of manifold I mentioned will work just as well as anything else for about $25.

The hydro test stations that deal with scuba tanks can give you the same quailty air as a LDS.

Go to the "OZ" dive shop, pull back the curtain and you will see the man behind the curtain is not doing magic back there, he is doing exactly what I am saying anyone with the proper knowledge and equipment can do. Again I am not suggesting this for someone new but for the more advanced diver who will likely already have most if not all of the components needed to do this.

 

[nimoh]

wow, hot topic.

I have been diving for 3 years, and support my local dive shop. I know that things are costing me more money, but the personal service I get from them is more that worth it to me, and they have become my friends.

I hope that the LDS of the future includes this type of relationship with its customers, and not sure how this is possible with online retailers.

 

[Rich Keller]

wow, hot topic.

I have been diving for 3 years, and support my local dive shop. I know that things are costing me more money, but the personal service I get from them is more that worth it to me, and they have become my friends.

I hope that the LDS of the future includes this type of relationship with its customers, and not sure how this is possible with online retailers.

The type of shop you are going to will always be there but they are not the only type of LDS in the market today.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Anyone diving nitrox already has an O2 clean reg

... why would anyone diving recreational nitrox (EAN40 or less) need an O2 clean reg?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

You can O2 clean any tank you already own.

You still need to own a separate tank that you are not filling with nitrox. I just checked with local gas suppliers, and they don't fill scuba tanks.

Anyone diving nitrox already has an O2 clean reg and the type of manifold I mentioned will work just as well as anything else for about $25.

Anyone diving nitrox has a reg suitable for <40%, which is pretty much any reg purchased in the last decade. You only normally need an O2 clean regulator for higher percentages. I use O2 clean regs for anything above 50%. I never owned one before I needed those percentages.

The hydro test stations that deal with scuba tanks can give you the same quailty air as a LDS.

I just called around. The only place I can get any scuba tanks filled around here, including that O2 clean tank you suggest, is at a LDS.

Go to the "OZ" dive shop, pull back the curtain and you will see the man behind the curtain is not doing magic back there, he is doing exactly what I am saying anyone with the proper knowledge and equipment can do. Again I am not suggesting this for someone new but for the more advanced diver who will likely already have most if not all of the components needed to do this.

I am a certified gas blender who has filled a lot of tanks, including nitrox and trimix, over the last few years. I know something about this. I imagine the average nitrox diver reading your explanations is not thinking along the lines of "no problem."

 

[mathauck0814]

You still need to own a separate tank that you are not filling with nitrox. I just checked with local gas suppliers, and they don't fill scuba tanks.
Anyone diving nitrox has a reg suitable for <40%, which is pretty much any reg purchased in the last decade. You only normally need an O2 clean regulator for higher percentages. I use O2 clean regs for anything above 50%. I never owned one before I needed those percentages.
I just called around. The only place I can get any scuba tanks filled around here, including that O2 clean tank you suggest, is at a LDS.

I am a certified gas blender who has filled a lot of tanks, including nitrox and trimix, over the last few years. I know something about this. I imagine the average nitrox diver reading your explanations is not thinking along the lines of "no problem."

I too am a certified trimix blender and know a thing or two about this. Still, somewhere along the line I think we diverged. I never proposed that this wouldn't cost money, nor did I say it would ever pay for itself. What I claimed was that it wasn't so expensive or costly or difficult to prevent an individual from setting up. Diving costs money - shocker. If the LDS went out of business tomorrow, gas wouldn't be my primary concern.

 

[redacted]

I too am a certified trimix blender and know a thing or two about this. Still, somewhere along the line I think we diverged. I never proposed that this wouldn't cost money, nor did I say it would ever pay for itself. What I claimed was that it wasn't so expensive or costly or difficult to prevent an individual from setting up. Diving costs money - shocker. If the LDS went out of business tomorrow, gas wouldn't be my primary concern.

I find that interesting because, not yet having a compressor, gas would be my primary concern. But I know it would not stop my diving. In fact, gas would be my only concern. So, if not concerned with gas, then what if anything?