The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


... fair to use it as a benchmark.

It doesn't matter how or where they get their stock. What matters is what they sell for, and that they are setting the market.

That others don't LIKE them setting the market doesn't change the fact that they DO set the market.

Maybe but I can't wait to see how they do when they have to hand out all the OW cards in order to create the market. If we didn't do that for free they'd be where we are.

I can't control any one else but I'm not doing it for free anymore. I won't spend hours helping divers figure out what they want for free for them either. I wonder how they'll do when divers start hanging out in their place til midnight picking their brain for free.

Oh, I forget all they do is put **** in a box. If I could get the **** I'd put in a box for what they charge too.

BTW, Its official now, all the major manufacturers dumped us because we got rid of the rented store even though I am still equiped to provide all the same services we did before.

 

[Otter]

medical1 once bubbled...


quote:
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medical1 once bubbled...


Exactly how much time does it take to hand someone a pair of fin in his or her size, point to a pool and say try it out and see if you (The paying customer) like them?




***Is my time as a customer worth something. I drove to your store. Dr's and lawyers seem to have this same concept.

------ I don't really understand your point here, but I agree that your time is valuable. Are you suggesting I should drop my price to compensate you for the time it took to get to the retail location?-----
:banging:



***Swim at your OWN risk sign, lets see how many stores don't have liability insurance - can we see some hands???
---- I think I was making the same point, again I am not sure what you are suggesting.....that I shouldn't care about the health and safety of my customers because I have liability insurance and sign?----


***Do I really need a consultation on color (my barber perhaps) & warranty - you have to be joking on this one - they are fins. Even giving you the argument of no warranty/grey market goods - I pay by credit card. The wonderful plastic card extends it's own warranty (Most credit cards double a factory implied warranty)
-- my point was these are examples of the types of questions that get asked and therefore in order to provide good service, I should be there should they and others get asked. ---


***That would be the attitude that would drive me to buy on line. Your not a paying customer YET so who need you. Guess what - the business owner does need me and my hard earned cash. I'm not just going to give it away!

As I failed to communicate effectively, for the purposes of the discussion in this thread we were (I thought) talking about people who go into shops, try out gear, and then go online. Using that as a premise, they are NOT customers. Short of them telling me that right off the bat, how would I even know and therefore I couldn't convey such an attitude.

Candidly my interest in those entire thread is passive/academic. While I teach at an LDS, I get no renumeration for working their or selling their equipment. I help my students make equipment selection and yes, at times suggest they buy elsewhere depending on their needs and budget.

The only reason I post on this issue off and on is
1. when I perceive an inequity/injustice. This thread was about feeling guilty about buying online. I prefaced my original comments attempting to limit their scope to the individual who knowing USES and LDS for sizing, selection, consultation -- attempts to get a price 'competitive' with ONLINE ignoring the value received thusfar -- and then gets incredulous that the LDS responds indignantly.
2. The other time I respond is in attempt to solict reponses to my back of the napkin analysis that in the end, using ONLINE will ulimately lead to their demise in addition to LDS and the mfgs will win. Thusfar, no one has found a flaw in my argument -- I wish they would as I won't enjoy that hassles which that will entail.

Cheers

 

[MikeFerrara]

The only answer is to raise the cost of training to what it should be.

Yo!...Hello...dive shops and instructors, don't give the classes away and you won't care where people buy their poodle jackets. If the classes are what you sell most of that's where you should make most of your money. When Aquajunk and scubapud complain tell them to streighten it out with LP.

 

[medical1]

Otter once bubbled...
As I failed to communicate effectively, for the purposes of the discussion in this thread we were (I thought) talking about people who go into shops, try out gear, and then go online. Using that as a premise, they are NOT customers. Short of them telling me that right off the bat, how would I even know and therefore I couldn't convey such an attitude.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I was NOT talking about using a LDS as a testing area. :doctor:

When I walk into a LDS I'm on a mission and have already done my research (Rodales, scubaboard, etc). =-)

Perfect example - Went to buy a new BC over the weekend as mine is too big. I knew what brand I wanted, size, & style. No strain on the LDS and took less then 2 minutes of his time.

*I bought it before I leave on a trip this coming Friday so it was a convienience.*

I elected to buy it for $560 even though LP has it for $389.

I didn't feel bad since I also have "Best Value Guarantee" on my AMEX card so American Express pays me the difference of $171 because I used there plastic.

If I didn't take advantage of this added benifit then I paid an additional $171 over LP with no added value other then a warm fuzzy feeeling.;-0

Didn't waste the LDS time & paid an average of $85 per minute above what LP charges. WHY?

 

[plsdiver4377]

The only answer is to raise the cost of training to what it should be.

Yo!...Hello...dive shops and instructors, don't give the classes away and you won't care where people buy their poodle jackets. If the classes are what you sell most of that's where you should make most of your money. When Aquajunk and scubapud complain tell them to streighten it out with LP.

I agree that is the way it should be.

Everyone seems to be on one side or the other on this issue. The simple fact of the matter is that the LDS owner and the consumer are both getting screwed by none other than the manufacturers.

It seems to me that the manufacturers have already won as it were. They get their money from both sides, the LDS where the they force the higher prices and selling restrictions as well as the supposed grey market internet stores where they don't have to honor any form of warranty. They couldn't care less who ultimately sells their product since they get paid either way.

As far as picking the brains of most of the LDS owners/employees that would be the last thing I would recommend anyone to do around here, unless you like abuse or stupidity (or maybe they just don't know any better).

I personally would like to meet some of types of divers and instructors such as MikeF and company that actually might be willing to teach (I don't mind paying for quality instruction considering I have paid $35-$70 a week for dressage/CT lessons) or sell without the attitude that seems to be prevalent among the LDS owners/employees around my area.

 

[medical1]

plsdiver4377 once bubbled...

I personally would like to meet some of types of divers and instructors such as MikeF and company that actually might be willing to teach (I don't mind paying for quality instruction considering I have paid $35-$70 a week for dressage/CT lessons) or sell without the attitude that seems to be prevalent among the LDS owners/employees around my area.

I say it again. I dont mind paying for Value and private lessons or an independant instructor is the way to actually learn how to scuba dive. Was well worth the money I spent on instruction.

I also think cattle classes (get them in the door then get them out) are NOT the way to actually learn to dive and not die. Take a class - get a card.

I've seen people with AOW cards they got in a 2 day class that I would NEVER have as a dive buddy.

Good Value & Fair Price = $
LeisurePro found that out with dive equipment.
Good value at a fair price + a good selection = sales. Simple business.

 

[Otter]

medical1 once bubbled...


What we have here is a failure to communicate. I was NOT talking about using a LDS as a testing area. :doctor:

When I walk into a LDS I'm on a mission and have already done my research (Rodales, scubaboard, etc). =-)

Perfect example - Went to buy a new BC over the weekend as mine is too big. I knew what brand I wanted, size, & style. No strain on the LDS and took less then 2 minutes of his time.

*I bought it before I leave on a trip this coming Friday so it was a convienience.*

I elected to buy it for $560 even though LP has it for $389.

I didn't feel bad since I also have "Best Value Guarantee" on my AMEX card so American Express pays me the difference of $171 because I used there plastic.

If I didn't take advantage of this added benifit then I paid an additional $171 over LP with no added value other then a warm fuzzy feeeling.;-0

Didn't waste the LDS time & paid an average of $85 per minute above what LP charges. WHY?

I think we are in agreement....probably a conversation that verbally would have lasted 5 mins or less..

The question is either

1. What as consumers can we do about it, or;
2. What as entreprenuers can we do to capitalize on this broken industry?

I am guessing that further discussion about what is 'right, wrong or indifferent' isn't going to change anything.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Otter once bubbled...



I think we are in agreement....probably a conversation that verbally would have lasted 5 mins or less..

The question is either

1. What as consumers can we do about it, or;
2. What as entreprenuers can we do to capitalize on this broken industry?

I gave my opinion above. What brings people into the shop? Classes. Instead of using training as a loss leader in the hopes of selling equipment, which they may or may no want from you, charge an appropriate price for the class. Training and service are what will need to support the dive shop in the future. You can't get those things online. The cost of that training and service need to support your business. The problem is that one shop can't do it by themself.

I am guessing that further discussion about what is 'right, wrong or indifferent' isn't going to change anything.

I don't think anything will change a bunch until some more of the old school give up and get out.

None of the big manufacturers will sell to me know. However I'll still have students. Want to bet that my students don't buy much at the local shops? The manufacturers will hear about it.

 

[medical1]

Welcome back to the 60's. Not exactly civil rights but.............

Boycott the manufacturers. Stock up on the items you need to service your coustomers that already own ScubaPro etc, then tell the manufacturers to kiss your butt. No more new equipment from them till they level the playing field. Manufacturers will notice when only LP or on-line retailers are the only ones that carry there product line. ;-0

How many on-line retailers service the equipment they sell???

You have the scubaboard which is on the web. You can reach a LOT of divers Nationwide and suggest other manufacturers that are more ethical to the LDS.

Get 5 shops together and let the first on place a bulk order with a manufacturer. Divide the order up & sell the equipment for whatever you want. When the manufacturer comes back and says they won't sell to the first shop for selling below MSRP, let the second shop place the next order. Then the 3rd, 4th, 5th - you get the idea.

My direct competition in business is Monster.com, Careerbuilder.com & Hotjobs. They have much bigger pockets then my company - remember the superbowl ads. I could have closed down and said I didn't have the same playing field they did. I stay in business because I offer better customer service & a better value then all of them combined.

Don't just say there is nothing you can do and that the system is broke. ;-0
There are ways to skirt the system or beat them at there own game- even against the big guys

 

[MikeFerrara]

medical1,

You're right but I can't see shops getting together. the big successful shops are good at the game and are making money. they don't really want anything to change and as long as they have a steady stream of new divers comming they'll do ok. As long as the manufacturers have enough of these shops they won't care much either. Those of us who don't wan't to play haven't sold enough for the manufacturers to care whether we come or go.

It's going to take action by the consumer along with the shops. If you really want shops around that provide the value you want you'll need to support manufacturers who will allow that. The problem is there aren't many.

Maybe buying equipment online has some effect but it would have a bigger effect if you went some place other than the LDS for your training also. If you think they're cheating you with their retail sales, why would you trust them to train you anyway?

Unless the manufacturers and the shops get a solid unmistakeable signal they won't get it.