The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[sheck33]

Otter once bubbled...


<snip>

The world is loaded with people who want something for nothing -- or more applicable to this discussion, they want to pay the LEAST amount they can for the MOST amount of value. Enron, WorldComm, Martha Stewart are but recent examples. I call that a flaw in CHARACTER, not "crying".

<snip>

Bottomline is that in our Capitalist society (still the best form of economy/government there is in the WORLD!!) we encounter this everyday. The SCUBA industry is no different...so if THEY try to find someway of getting a return on the value the offer, thats THEIR choice. If they decide they don't want the 'freeloaders' as customers, more power to them. If you decide to go somewhere else, no problem.

<snip>

just a second.
you say wanting as much value as possible for a certain amount of money is a character flaw and in the same post you say a capitalist society is the best form of economy
how is that not a contradiction here, getting as much value for a given amount of money as possible is exactly what this 'great' capitalist society is all about! This capitalist society is ruled by money and money only. If a diveshop does not want to answer my questions unless i buy from them they are unprofessional and i'll be more than happy to go elsewhere.

most diveshops have some serious issues that need fixing

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...



why does this only seem to be an issue in the diving industry i have gone to home depot to ask for advice and then went to another store to buy goods and the other way around. i have never been harassed anywhere but in a divestore for buying (stuff) gear 'elsewhere'. That is how it works, as a consumer i am free to ask advice and buy goods where ever i please, it is still a free country last i checked. as Genesis stated:

'Blaming the customer for coming in and checking out what you have, then buying somewhere else, is exactly backwards. You, as a merchant, had every opportunity to make that sale - you decided not to. Blaming the customer for your failure to close the deal isn't the customer's fault - its yours!'

Genesis is right.

you are not going to keep a customer if you harass them for buying things elsewhere. i have gotten to the point where i will buy online even if the item costs more :upset:

That's not how it happens for crying out loud. How much time do you spend at home depot? I have spent entire Saturdays with one customer. I've had the same customer spend evening after evening talking about this piece of equipment and that piece. I have had them come to the pool and OW to try equipment. They tie up me or my wife getting them adjusted and waiting on them hand and foot. You always have to give a little diving lesson otherwise they won't be able to tell if they like the equipment or not. i've gone through this much troublw for a pair of fins. I've literally spent more time with some of these people than I spend with a student. After all that they get looking around on the net and decide their chat site buddies are right and I'm ripping them off and they buy from LP. Give me a break. Some of these people would have gotten a bargin if I charged them $1000 for my time. Do you think shops are complaining about spending 10 minutes with a person? You folks haven't got any idea. We're talking about hours and hours with the same customer. Many of those hours are after we're closed. All in the interest of providing a good service to a person who's going to accuse us of being crooks and buy from LP. The people that take up the most of your time and make you jump through the most hoops and bend over the furthest are the cheapest and most insulting and value the time and effort of others the least.

God ,closing that shop was the best thing I ever did! Blame the customer? Gee...do you think I'll miss this business.

 

[Otter]

sheck33 once bubbled...



why does this only seem to be an issue in the diving industry i have gone to home depot to ask for advice and then went to another store to buy goods and the other way around. i have never been harassed anywhere but in a divestore for buying (stuff) gear 'elsewhere'. That is how it works, as a consumer i am free to ask advice and buy goods where ever i please, it is still a free country last i checked. as Genesis stated:


Please understand that I am not justifying harassment....its short-sighted. But as you pointed out, its a free country...they can "harass" if they want to...like not chosing to service your equipment......it goes both ways.


'Blaming the customer for coming in and checking out what you have, then buying somewhere else, is exactly backwards. You, as a merchant, had every opportunity to make that sale - you decided not to. Blaming the customer for your failure to close the deal isn't the customer's fault - its yours!'

Genesis is right.

you are not going to keep a customer if you harass them for buying things elsewhere. i have gotten to the point where i will buy online even if the item costs more :upset:

I had EVERY OPPORUNITY TO CLOSE THE SALE? How so? You have found the product you want, we just don't agree on price. The value I bring and the costs associated bringing that value are HIGHER than ONLINE, so where is the OPPORUNITY I have? IF we are comparing ONLINE to ONLINE or RETAIL to RETAIL, then I would agree. But we are talking about different distribution channels with different cost structures (ignoring the gray market crap).

This isn't that complicated.....What makes SCUBA different is the SMALL size of the market AND the control the mfgs have. Take the book industry. You pay more for the same title in a retail store than online. Because of the VOLUME of books sold (pun intended), they can spread the extra costs associated with a retail storefront over millions of books sold each year.

SCUBA doesn't have that VOLUME so the cost is spread over fewer [and increasingly fewer] retail sales. Hence higher margins. In order to survive (long-term prognosis is poor), they have to lower costs or drive up volume. This can manifest itself in poorer service (cheaper labor that knows squat), less services (no free consultations / pool-dive) prior to the sale, or fewer shops in an area (and hence more volume). Add to the noise that the mfgs generally require large (by LDS standards) purchases of equipment (tieing up valuable cash in inventory that doesn't turn often -- compared to most retailers), the LDS can't compete.

So, if placing blame FOR THE FACT THAT THE SCUBA INDUSTRY IS BROKE is what you are looking for, then it IS and IT IS NOT with the CONSUMER, LDS and MFGr.

The CONSUMER will continue to act in their own self-interest , BUT has unrealistic expecations of what the price/value proposition is given the minuteness of the market.

The LDS will continue to react emotionally to the fact that their world, their lifestyle is going away. This will only accelerate the process. THERE WILL NOT BE LDSs in 10 years. They won't last.

Manufacturer will continue to turn a blind eye (or as conspiracy theorists suggest, promote) the disintegration of current distribution channels -- no more LDS, no more indendent distributors, no more ONLINE providers -- and will be the direct provider of equipment to the CONSUMER via the internet...this will likely result in their attaining better margins, extracted from the intermediaries. In exchange for the loss of value that the LDS once provided, CONSUMERS will likely enjoy lower prices.

 

[sheck33]

Mike, i guess we are on opposite ends of the deal here.
my opinion was formed by the experiences i have had with several diveshops over the years just as yours must have been formed by your experiences with cusomers

it is a shame you had to close your shop because of all the BS going on in the dive industry. from what i have read you seem to be an exceptional instructor and being called a PADI instructor almost sounds like an insult........

 

[medical1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


That's not how it happens for crying out loud. How much time do you spend at home depot? I have spent entire Saturdays with one customer. I've had the same customer spend evening after evening talking about this piece of equipment and that piece. I have had them come to the pool and OW to try equipment. They tie up me or my wife getting them adjusted and waiting on them hand and foot. You always have to give a little diving lesson otherwise they won't be able to tell if they like the equipment or not. i've gone through this much troublw for a pair of fins. I've literally spent more time with some of these people than I spend with a student. After all that they get looking around on the net and decide their chat site buddies are right and I'm ripping them off and they buy from LP. Give me a break. Some of these people would have gotten a bargin if I charged them $1000 for my time. Do you think shops are complaining about spending 10 minutes with a person? You folks haven't got any idea. We're talking about hours and hours with the same customer. Many of those hours are after we're closed. All in the interest of providing a good service to a person who's going to accuse us of being crooks and buy from LP. The people that take up the most of your time and make you jump through the most hoops and bend over the furthest are the cheapest and most insulting and value the time and effort of others the least.

God ,closing that shop was the best thing I ever did! Blame the customer? Gee...do you think I'll miss this business.

Exactly how much time does it take to hand someone a pair of fin in his or her size, point to a pool and say try it out and see if you (The paying customer) like them?

If your going to work in a service industry - you have to provide service.

In a shoe store would you buy the shoes without trying them on?
There is a difference between browsing and a serious buyer. The trick is to show the browser WHY they should buy from you and not the guy down the block!

Hay Mike want to talk about politics next? What do you think about the California mess & Mr Arnold?

Just good natured banter ut:

 

[learn-scuba]

Somehting to consider about buying from your LDC versus online... online sellers don't arrange dive trips, training and all the other pieces that go along with owning gear. Your LDC depends on your support to stay in business as much as divers tend to rely on them for ongoing training, dive trips, clubs and so on.

use the online prices to negotiate a better price... but never forget that there's far more to this sport than a place to buy gear ofr a couple of dollars less.

 

[Otter]

sheck33 once bubbled...


just a second.
you say wanting as much value as possible for a certain amount of money is a character flaw and in the same post you say a capitalist society is the best form of economy
how is that not a contradiction here, getting as much value for a given amount of money as possible is exactly what this 'great' capitalist society is all about! This capitalist society is ruled by money and money only. If a diveshop does not want to answer my questions unless i buy from them they are unprofessional and i'll be more than happy to go elsewhere.

most diveshops have some serious issues that need fixing

My comment was "..they want to pay the LEAST amount they can for the MOST amount of value" not just certain amount, but lets ignore that for the moment.

I don't believe my comment to be a contradiction because, while Capitalism is the best form of economy/government that humans have devised and implemented, it isn't PERFECT by any means and it certainly isn't FAIR. It is possible to have capitalism without character flaws -- YES in fact, this country was built on the economic notion of a fair day's wage for a fair day's work. While we had a lot of social problems (and still do), it used to be that deals were done on a handshake, that commitments were made and kept. Heck as recent as 4 year ago, I worked for company that honored its contract to build a mine in Australia despite that fact that the company goofed up and lost $100M. At the same time, we had a supplier, part of a LARGER corporation than ours (and we were $10B in sales) that was losing $12M on their screw-up (or worse, they willfully lowballed the bid because they thought once they were in, they had us by the short-hairs) and walked off the job. We sued and won to recover damages.

...If a diveshop does not want to answer my questions unless i buy from them they are unprofessional

That an interesting defintion of unprofessional. Do you not expect to pay for the knowledge and experienced that a teacher, a doctor, attorney, consultant conveys to you. Or is it because the payment for the knowledge and experience that an LDS conveys is embedded in the price of equipment, that its somehow OK...their time isn't valuable, but yours is [you are asking questions presumably because you don't have the time or inclination to research it all on your own, including buying and trying out various pieces of gear]??

 

[Otter]

medical1 once bubbled...


Exactly how much time does it take to hand someone a pair of fin in his or her size, point to a pool and say try it out and see if you (The paying customer) like them?



1. Lets say it took a minute, my minute of time isn't worth anything?
2. who is paying for the liability. Do I go out and watch the person to make sure they don't drown.....be ready to answer the next serious of questions....why/why not split fins, how about full-footed fins, different colors....warranty....
3. They aren't a paying customer....they haven't paid and for the purposes of this discussion, they aren't going to pay. The are going online to say a few $.


If your going to work in a service industry - you have to provide service.



1. For the purposes of our banter we are comparing an LDS (service industry) with ONLINE (product industry) thats why this comparison breaks down and banter occurs. Why can't I get an applesauce for the price on an apple. Because someone has to add value to the Apple to make it Applesause.


In a shoe store would you buy the shoes without trying them on?
There is a difference between browsing and a serious buyer. The trick is to show the browser WHY they should buy from you and not the guy down the block!
[B/]

1. Converting a browser to a buyer is not the same as showing the buyer why he/she should buy the indentical product from me vs the guy down the street. Browsers need to be sold on WHAT to buy, the second is WHERE. The board is full of reasons why LDS are a better place to buy -- convenience, fit, immediacy, mfg warranty, consultation, post-purchase support and service. However, for some reason beyond my belief, people rationalize all of this away. They want all of those differentiators but don't want to pay anything (or 'much') for it.


Hay Mike want to talk about politics next? What do you think about the California mess & Mr Arnold?

Just good natured banter ut:

I realize this was directed at Mike, but since I LIVE in CALIFORNIA and Mike doesn't, I will respond.

Mess is the nicest word I have heard to describe this farcification (it thats a word) of our democracy. Every Californian, every American, every member of a democratic society should be appalled. Not at the recall -- that is and should be our right as citizens of a democracy. Its the farce of an election that is attached to it that is repulsive.

 

[SeaJay]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I don't believe you own a retail store.

<shrugs> Believe what you like. From my perspective, please understand how entertaining your beliefs are.

I have two stores... And that can be verified by anyone who knows me. We do over $5 million a year out of those two locations, and operate on a margin of 19%. When I worked for the corporate retailers while I was in my early 20's, our break even point was somewhere between 16% and 19%, depending on which store you were talking about.

As I've said to dive shops who complain about the fact that "LeisurePro sells for less than I can buy it at myself," I'll tell you this... Perhaps, then, you need to be getting your items from another source. If they sell cheaper on LP than they do from the manufacturer, then you should buy the items from LeisurePro yourself.

I don't care if your supplier has a cow. Tell him he has to do better than a competing retailer, or you're going to buy somewhere else.

That's what I do. If they want my business, I treat my vendors exactly as I would treat the retailer if I were the customer; I put my money where it's best spent, where I get the best value at the least cost.

If you did you wouldn't come up with this crap. You should know better. I have repeatedly shown that LP prices are often down near what I pay for things. 10% over that won't pay the light bill nevermind paying some one to stand there and spend their time with you.

I didn't say, "10%." I said, "10%-15% OVER the margin that LP is making." They aren't selling the goods at zero profit margin, you know. I also added that 20% to 25% margin OVER the margin that LP is making would be fair, if the shop was educated and added something of value to the purchase. In my experience, I have not seen LDS's add something of value to the purchase, and in most cases, I've actually seen LDS's SUBTRACT from the value of the purchase.

It isn't valid to use LP prices for a benchmark since nobody has yet even been able to show where or how they get their stock.

I see. So therein lies the real problem. They've figured out a way to have an advantage in the marketplace so that other's can't compete. I hope that I can establish a similar advantage with my own business... And I strive for that goal every day. The advantage can be in location purchased, lower operating expenses, better buying power, lower local taxes, less/cheaper employees, better educated employees, or whatever... But the bottom line is that that's the whole point... To have an advantage over your competition. It's up to you to create that advantage.

That's the whole point of capitalism.

...And apparently, LeisurePro has an advantage that other LDS's have not discovered.

...So my suggestion to find a resolve to this is to find out what that advantage is, and how, exactly, they got it. If you can duplicate it, then you'll be in a postion of benefit, rather than detriment, from the advantage.

...And then divers will beat a path to your door, like they do with LeisurePro now.

 

[medical1]

Otter once bubbled...


I realize this was directed at Mike, but since I LIVE in CALIFORNIA and Mike doesn't, I will respond.

Mess is the nicest word I have heard to describe this farcification (it thats a word) of our democracy. Every Californian, every American, every member of a democratic society should be appalled. Not at the recall -- that is and should be our right as citizens of a democracy. Its the farce of an election that is attached to it that is repulsive.

Otter - don't feel too bad.
I live in Flor-duh. We can't count votes too well for our Presidents brother.
California counts votes correctly and didn't like the outcome.
Don't know who is worse, but Gary Coleman or Arnold is right up there with very bad

Don't worry - I'll be back..............