The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[Genesis]

The relaity of the economics is that at LP prices a full service dive shop can't make it and the manufacturers want dive professionals representing their products. The high markups that they insist on is how they attempt to attract the representatives that they want. They want their equipment hanging in dive shops infront of students. If the markup isn't enough their equipment won't be there. Their just trying to keep out the undesireable elements. LOL

The first part of your sentence is simply not true.

There are dozens of ways to "make it" in any line of business. Back in the mid '90s, a number of hardware suppliers pushed one specific model in the ISP business, including some amazing incentives on their gear (like effectively free financing, or close to it) to push "their way" and drive their numbers.

A lot of people followed their line, straight off the cliff at Warp 9. The wreckage was strewn all over the landscape in the 2000/01 timeframe, including some REALLY BIG companies, like PSI, MCI/Worldcom, etc.

Was that model "good"? No. But it was in CISCO's, ASCEND's, Lucent's and Livingston's best interest. At least for a while.

Parallels? There are many - if you care to look.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


The first part of your sentence is simply not true.

There are dozens of ways to "make it" in any line of business. Back in the mid '90s, a number of hardware suppliers pushed one specific model in the ISP business, including some amazing incentives on their gear (like effectively free financing, or close to it) to push "their way" and drive their numbers.

A lot of people followed their line, straight off the cliff at Warp 9. The wreckage was strewn all over the landscape in the 2000/01 timeframe, including some REALLY BIG companies, like PSI, MCI/Worldcom, etc.

Was that model "good"? No. But it was in CISCO's, ASCEND's, Lucent's and Livingston's best interest. At least for a while.

Parallels? There are many - if you care to look.

You're missing the point. We can't do business like LP and still be able to get stuff to sell. LP some how has sources we can't find or...and likely can't afford.

Ask around and see what I've been selling stuff for. If I wasn't closing I couldn't have done it. Even so all the increase in volume did was pay the rent.

 

[Genesis]

You're missing the point. We can't do business like LP and still be able to get stuff to sell. LP some how has sources we can't find or...and likely can't afford.

LP has.

The sources are out there.

Hell, you could even buy from LP. Yeah, I know, you've had insurance issues with that. So become two companies - one that sells hardware, no training or service, the second does only the "authorized" stuff.

There are solutions to most problems, IF you care to investigate them. Most people don't - its easier to blame someone else, of course.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Genesis once bubbled...


The first part of your sentence is simply not true.

There are dozens of ways to "make it" in any line of business. Back in the mid '90s, a number of hardware suppliers pushed one specific model in the ISP business, including some amazing incentives on their gear (like effectively free financing, or close to it) to push "their way" and drive their numbers.

But you still can't say how an LDS can do it, can you? This isn't about anything but LDS vs. LP, a very specific battle, and one you seem to love fighting, even though you've made it clear you won't buy from a dive shop. You seem to think you know everything about how to run a dive business, what's your answer? How do they stay in business?

I don't want to hear any jargon, (ie, value proposition), just facts. What, specificly would an LDS have to do to get your business, (clearly, if they could get your business, they could sell snowballs in Antarctica!), and still remain profitable?

Well?

 

[JohnF]

Genesis says

"There are dozens of ways to "make it" in any line of business. Back in the mid '90s, a number of hardware suppliers pushed one specific model in the ISP business, including some amazing incentives on their gear (like effectively free financing, or close to it) to push "their way" and drive their numbers.

A lot of people followed their line, straight off the cliff at Warp 9. The wreckage was strewn all over the landscape in the 2000/01 timeframe, including some REALLY BIG companies, like PSI, MCI/Worldcom, etc.

Was that model "good"? No. But it was in CISCO's, ASCEND's, Lucent's and Livingston's best interest. At least for a while.

Parallels? There are many - if you care to look."


Why do you persist in citing examples from the computer business to prove your beefs against the dive business? But I suppose it explains your weak grasp on the realities of scuba retail. Perhaps you should stick to pontificating against Bill Gates. That seems to be your strength.

Take any urban 10 square block area. How many computers will there be? Residential, commercial or industrial, it doesn't matter, they all use computers. Now in that same 10 square block area, how many scuba regs of all makes do you expect to find? Unless you've picked a sector which includes a scuba warehouse or really huge retailer, you know what the answer will be. So let's compare apples and apples, not Apples and Apeks. Your examples to back up your arguments are so distant from the reality you're arguing that they blow away any credibility your case might have.

And later he says

"The fact of the matter is that logic dictates that price controls are not in the manufacturer's best interest, taken alone. Why? Because the manufacturer makes money only based on volume - their wholesale cost is the same no matter the retail markup, and their price to the retailer is the same as well (absent volume discounts.)

So, the manufacturer only "wins" if the volume goes up.

If there is a fixed amount of money to spend on dive gear in the universe of divers (and there is), the manufactuer only "wins" if they sell more units. If each unit is more expensive they sell FEWER units, which is a NET LOSS for them.

The claim of "BS" must yield to the realities of economics."

Is it even remotely possible that some manufacturers take enough pride in their product and their company name to want their products sold by dealers who will also provide qualified service for that equipment, like regs for example? How many people would expect to take their regs to a Walmart for service, even if they purchased them there? That's not a slam against Walmart, but I don't believe they have much interest in servicing the stuff they sell. They're retailers, not a service shop. So I suppose every scuba reg customer in the world should have no problem shipping his regs back to England or California or Italy or wherever, for every seasonal maintenance overhaul. Either that or learning how to do that service at home and take the chance that they really do know how to service their life support equipment safely and properly.

I like my lds. Makes my life much simpler. I worry about the day when all the good technicians have been relegated to working in some warehouse's back room, servicing regs sent from all over the world, and I have to wait for weeks and pay the shipping costs, to get my regs worked on, and by some guy who couldn't even ask me to explain what the regs were doing when I breathed them.

I suppose it's fair to drag in another industry. How about this? Supporting the lds's of the world vs the LP's of the world, is like choosing between Maxim's and McDonalds for dinner. Yer gonna get what you pay for. If you're satisfied with a Big Mac, save the bux. If you want prime rib prepared by a world class chef and presented with elan, try Maxim's. It's all beef.

JF

 

[Genesis]

or a fill shop?

Oops - already have fill shops. At least in SE Florida....

No "independant" service shops? Why not? There are in the car biz. And a car is far more complicated than a reg, and vastly more likely to hurt someone if it malfunctions in a bad way.

So.... what's the deal here?

The deal is blatent attempts to keep people from comparing on value, by restraining trade. By restricting pricing, you prevent businesses from developing their own value equations that work for both them and their customers. You instead force them into a model where they do other things, and cross-subsidize in an attempt to differentiate themselves from one another, and that harms the industry - and relationships between shops and divers - as a whole.

What does it take for me to shop somewhere? A good value equation. If I can do it quicker, faster and cheaper myself than I can pay someone else to do it, then you're WAY behind.

I've had local shops here lose my business this way, and a few gain my business the same way - by offering a value equation that works.

But its not automatic, and I owe no retailer anything. Its their business to earn - or lose.

 

[joed]

Believe me, I like to save money. But I do support my LDS. They let me try out gear before I buy, they host our dive club meetings , give me a place to hang out and they help me with other problems that I have with gear that I buy from them. Try to get that on line. We have had many LDS go under over the years. I support my LDS to help them be around for a long time. If they go out of business than I have to travel further to get my tanks filled. We have to support the small business in our community if we want them around to service us. This applies as long as the LDS is friendly and has what you need.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Genesis once bubbled...


What does it take for me to shop somewhere? A good value equation. If I can do it quicker, faster and cheaper myself than I can pay someone else to do it, then you're WAY behind.

You simply cannot do it, can you?

You can't say what it would take to get an LDS to get your business. You're great with terminology, (value equation, indeed!), but you either can't , or won't say, in plain english, what an LDS can do to get your business, and still make a profit.

YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO BUY FROM AN LDS, you have all the answers, so why do you persist in wasting bandwidth bagging on LDS'?

What, did a guy at an LDS steal your girlfriend? Did a roving band of Dive shop employees burn your village when you were a child?

(Oh, and just for the sake of annoyance; Aren't quicker and faster pretty much the same thing?)

 

[Genesis]

You simply cannot do it, can you?

You can't say what it would take to get an LDS to get your business. You're great with terminology, (value equation, indeed!), but you either can't , or won't say, in plain english, what an LDS can do to get your business, and still make a profit.

YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO BUY FROM AN LDS, you have all the answers, so why do you persist in wasting bandwidth bagging on LDS'?

On the contrary.

I have and do purchase from time to time from LDSs. In the last few months have purchased several speargun slings, a couple of tips and shafts, and three PST HP tanks from LDSs.

I could have ordered all of the above from LP.

But in the case of the tanks, the LDS in question gave me a very attractive price, and was willing to ride on PST to get them when they were released. Its called personal service, and they delivered. SOLD. In the case of the slings and spear stuff, they had them on the shelf and weren't trying to rape me on the price. Again, SOLD.

I also just signed up two of my friends for OW class at an LDS.

But in the last six months I have also purchased quite a bit of gear online. I have also purchased a compressor and made up my own fill whips, and no longer buy GAS at an LDS.

Why did the LDS lose on those transactions? The value equation. As an example, to get to an LDS to fill my tanks (we have three within roughly the same driving distance), I have to drive about an hour (30 minutes each way) and wait for them to do the job - sometimes very fast, sometimes not so fast, and sometimes I get a tank monkey who simply doesn't understand what I want and chooses to argue with me instead of just giving me my fills and taking my money. One LDS continuous blends, one has a membrane, and the third both banks and PP mixes Nitrox. None of the above give me "walk in, hand money over counter, get fill, walk out with tanks" convenience 100% of the time, especially if I want - and I usually do - a "custom" (e.g. 30%) mix. One has a tank monkey who has argued with me about filling my tank with X PSI of 32% off the bank and then topping it with air - telling me that "I can't do that" for a half hour - probably because he couldn't handle the math - even when I gave him the pressures for each part of the fill and was willing to analyze, sign for, and PAY FOR whatever the outcome was (that is, if I was wrong on the fill pressures I gave him, I both accepted the mix and ate the mistake.)

In the same two hours (one hour drive time, plus waiting and fill time, minimum) I can fill my own tanks, its cheaper besides over the next couple of years, all costs (including time) considered, and I get EXACTLY what I want.

Better, faster, cheaper. The LDS loses.

When I wanted an AI WP transmitter, the LDS lost. I got the product nearly immediately over the Internet, it was $200 cheaper, and the warranty remains honored by the same mechanism - its sent out if it breaks.

The LDS in question in that transaction refused to promise me an instant swap if it broke during the warranty, and therefore lost the "better, faster, cheaper" race on that transaction too. They lost due to their demand for a fixed, high-mark-up price without any service advantage to make the value equation work!

I will soon help equip those same two friends above with regs and such. The LDSs in the area will likely get a shot at the BCs, but for personal gear Walmart already got their mask business, snorkels are for training classes (and also are just fine at WalMart) and the fins are on order from LP for half of what the LDS wanted for the same fins. Why not the LDS? Why would I - or they - pay two to three times as much for them at the LDS? As for regs, again, why would I buy from the LDS? For double the money? Even if they pay for service parts (and I don't overhaul them for them for free) at full retail it will be ten years before they spend the difference on service parts at the LDS! Before then, they'll want a new reg.

Gauges and computers? I have a spare Vyper computer and SPG. That's one down. I have a second older Aqualung depth gauge with the older-style integrated bottom timer that a guy left on my boat 'cause it was broken (the timer no longer worked.) US Divers/Aqualung claimed this is "not user serviceable." Oh yeah? I got it apart last night without managing to break it, and guess what - I fixed it. So now we have a perfectly functional depth gauge and digital bottom timer - cool - that and an SPG and you have basic instruments, and I just happen to have a SPG in a two-gauge console with a nice hole for this unit on my shelf too. I'm going to dive the bottom timer today to make sure it works ok and the depth gauge is reasonably close to proper calibration (and make any needed adjustments this evening.)

So what does the LDS offer me, exactly? That depends. When I wanted speargun sling replacements, or a spare shaft and tip, they had what I wanted and charged a reasonable price. They got the sale. The class is offered at a fair price for my two friends. They got the sale - even though they don't need a class, right? (Plenty of people dove for plenty of years without, and I can solve their "can't get gas without the card" problem for them and will - for free!)

Does an LDS have a place? Sure, if they can manage to provide a value equation that works for the buyer. If not, they should (and will!) go under.

 

[diverbrian]

Genesis once bubbled...


The class is offered at a fair price for my two friends. They got the sale - even though they don't need a class, right? (Plenty of people dove for plenty of years without, and I can solve their "can't get gas without the card" problem for them and will - for free!)

That is unless they want to dive when they travel. No respectable dive operator will touch renting gear to a non diver or taking them on a charter. Just as not many cave diving shops will sell guidelines and cave equipment to divers without cave certification. You would not have been doing them a favor by supplying them without them having C-Cards. At least the certification means that at one time they were presented with some minimum amount of knowledge to attempt to be safe in what they are intending to do.

Certification cards came into existance for a reason. People were suffering all kinds of fatalities and injuries for reasons of sheer ignorance of safe diving practices. (Worse than now.) We still hear about people getting "bootleg" tri-mix and nitrox fills getting hurt or killed because they never learned the minimums to safely use the gas that they are diving.