The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[ZoCrowes255]

Amber once bubbled...


I agree. I don't see why they don't already do that now. I'm sure they could sell far more equipment online than through an LDS if they had it backed by a warrenty.

But then again if that was true, I doubt it would be much cheaper than from an LDS.

Because they (sort of) see the big picture. Dive shops train divers at a loss. Only trained scuba divers buy scuba equipment. Trained scuba divers need equipment. They buy equipment from the dive shop. Dive shops and manufacturers are both happy with this arrangement (as is the customer.) Now if a manufacturer was to warranty and service internet purchased equipment that takes food from the mouth of the LDS. The LDS does not sell gear so the LDS does not train divers. No new divers means no new equipment sold. The LDS and manfucturers both lose out.

That's the idea at least. Unfortunately it's much more complicated than that.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Genesis once bubbled...

Its a damn fine way to put yourself out of business, if you ask me.

So, if you're scenario is 100% accurate, then there is NO way an LDS can stay in business.

I've followed these posts carefully, and while you point out the flaws in the system, and spout wonderful jargon, (commodity product, value proposition, etc.), I notice that, while pointing out the flaws, you have not once put forth a workable solution. To clarify; solve the problem of how to operate an LDS successfully.

You can't.

I fail to see that there is a solution. The LDS is doomed. With overhead, there is no real way for them to compete with LP.

If every diver can buy his/her gear, compressor, and service his/her equipment, there is realistically no way an LDS can offer anything that would allow them to make a profit, and give value to the diver. Excellent service costs money. (training and overhead, again) You seem to neither want nor need excellent service.

They can offer nothing. (to you)

So, why do you care? Why is it that anytime LDS threads pop up, you vault onto LP's band wagon?

I've got you.

You're the CEO of LP.

(Those silly stickers are just your 'loss leader'!)

 

[GlockDiver]

I've been reading a lot about this LP vs. LDS thing, and what seems very apparent to me is that LP depends on the LDSs staying in business, and to a certain extent, LDSs depend on LP staying in business.

Without LDSs out there training people to become divers, there simply will not be a market for scuba equipment, and LP will go out of business.

However, not everyone can afford to pay the highest price for everything. I got into scuba diving because I thought it'd be cheaper than finishing my private pilot's license. Turns out it is cheaper, but won't be by much.

I'm one of the people that needs LP in order to keep diving. If I had to rent everything ($100 for BC/reg/tank/wetsuit/weights rental from LDS) to go diving, I simply could not dive very much. The alternative is to buy my equipment. However, that too is a steep price.

So far, I've spent $550 at my LDS ($325 for my OW class, and $225 for mask/snorkel/boots/fins). And I've spent $75 at LP (3mm shorty). So I figure I've supported my LDS well so far. But money s short, and that is where LP comes in. For complex gear, I plan on buying through the LDS. For simple stuff like wetsuits, LP is fine. Besides, my LDS doesn't carry my size anyway.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


Ah, and who represented them as SP BCs? Did the firm who sold them to LP? Or did LP? You don't know, do you? Since the tooling was NOT returned, obviously (due to the fact that they were made and other than the inflator apparently were indistinguishable from the real thing), I think some reasonable conclusions can be drawn there.... Let's see, we have tooling that was supposed to be destroyed or returned, and clearly wasn't, then some additional BCs were cranked out with nice lables on them that to any reasonable person would appear to be authentic.... not hard to figure out what was going on here, and it wasn't LP playing the games.

You're right. LP wasn't playing games. They were paying some one else to do it for them. They were the market. No SP dealer would ever buy that stuff because they get there stuff from SP.

Maybe the bc looked very much like the real thing. However, were all the same manufacturing controls in place that a company like SP would require. Since that costs money my bet is that they weren't. Was there the same testing and SPC. Were the same manufactuting records kept. If they found out later that there was a defective in a component or process would they have a means to recall? Since the tooling was taken away they sure couldn't fix or replace it even if they did.

Buyer beware.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


Greed is the original cause of the death of truth and honesty.



On the contrary; the dealers are the ones who are to "blame", as they are the ones doing the insisting. Talk to some of the manufacturers and you will find this out. Some of them are honest enough to discuss it if you ask nicely. Others are, well, let's just say that they are a lot like Uwatec's dive computer history in terms of honesty when it comes to issues....

That's just the bs they gave you to get you out of their hair. LOL No dive shop can insist on anything with the manufacturer their control of the industry is firm. They nearly all do things about the same and you can play by their rules or not play. They don't seem to care. I have certainly never seen any evidence that they have yeilded to the will of the LDS ever on any issue especially the big ones like SP and aqualung.

You're funny. You hear a line of bs from a guy on the phone and run around repeating it as fact.

"Fair trade" pricing is a dodge around the law. So is the "limited discount" nonsense. Yes, its legal. Its legal due to a loophole in the black-letter way the law is written. It is, however, IMHO a clear ethical violation of the intent of the law, which is to make vertical price restraints unlawful.

Such "fair trade" pricing in other industries has attracted FTC attention in the past. Read the "Nine West" case for a near-perfect fit in terms of how Nine West controlled resale prices and how the scuba manufacturers attempt to do so. Nine West, by the way, settled their case and agreed to stop doing what they were doing.

A manufacturing dictating the price that their product is sold at isn't price fixing. It isn't any more control than they would have if they skipped the dealer and sold direct. They can only effect teir own product. If you want to complain about some thing complain about the fact that they insist you have retail space, a compressor and offer classes before they'll let you sell their stuff at all. That's the real price fixer!

I believe that some disgruntled "retail" shop did this in an attempt to discredit a lower-cost seller

[/i]

Any evidence? or just more wild, slanted accusations. In recent years new sources have apparantly opened up for non-dealers like SP but no one would have more motive to gring off numbers than they would especially a few years ago. If LP didn't grind off the numbers my guess is that it was a dive shop that was selling to them. Using the serial numbers the manufacturer could track the source and shut them down. I could believe that LP wouldn't know enough to notice being that they don't know anything about scuba equipment and all.

Certainly they have many options. The shops just choose not to accept and work with them. Instead they try to lay the guilt trips on divers and outright lie to people. That's where its wrong.

No actually very few options. If you don't do it the way the manufacturers dictate, you get shut down, PERIOD

BTW, if any one does find out how LP gets their stuff, I sure would like to know. I'm going to keep teaching and would like to have a few things on hand for students. I might even like to sell afew things online. Even with all the people I know in theis business, the day I close my shop all my sources dry up. I won't even be able to get parts for the regs I sold to help out the locals who bought them from me. LP, is pulling some real sneaky crap just to come into possession of the stuff their selling. Kickbacks? bribes? I haven't tried that yet. I have tried just about everything else though. Shoot I'm trying to play the same game and there seems to be some real entry barriers like the fact that without a dive shop this stuff just isn't for sale. Where do they get it?

And? Pumping the "new diver" mentality and fleecing them sounds like something out of the penny stock business - and about as honest of a way to make a living as that one is.

LOL, that's how we drum up all the saled for LP.

Truth is, for any random group of 4 divers, if you bought your gear from LP instead of the LDS you could also buy a compressor, and tell the shop to kiss your butt.

Of course the shops won't bother explaining any of that to you, because then their primary argument - "what 'ya gonna do when you force US out of business - get airfills from LP?" would go "poof."

No? actually I explain it to all my customers right up front.

So instead we have lies, deception, and other forms of chicanery and falsehood, all of which are calculated to keep the local shop in business.

The problem isn't that people are trying to make money - that's fine, and in fact, its how capitalism works. As an enterpreneur I not only understand but fully support capitalism!

The problem is that they're doing it by lying to people.

When the lying stops, so will my arguing against it.

Actually it seems to me that LP and their supporters do most of the story telling.

 

[Genesis]

That's just the bs they gave you to get you out of their hair. LOL No dive shop can insist on anything with the manufacturer their control of the industry is firm. They nearly all do things about the same and you can play by their rules or not play. They don't seem to care. I have certainly never seen any evidence that they have yeilded to the will of the LDS ever on any issue especially the big ones like SP and aqualung.

You're funny. You hear a line of bs from a guy on the phone and run around repeating it as fact.

No, not a line of BS from "some guy" on the phone.

The fact of the matter is that logic dictates that price controls are not in the manufacturer's best interest, taken alone. Why? Because the manufacturer makes money only based on volume - their wholesale cost is the same no matter the retail markup, and their price to the retailer is the same as well (absent volume discounts.)

So, the manufacturer only "wins" if the volume goes up.

If there is a fixed amount of money to spend on dive gear in the universe of divers (and there is), the manufactuer only "wins" if they sell more units. If each unit is more expensive they sell FEWER units, which is a NET LOSS for them.

The claim of "BS" must yield to the realities of economics.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...



The claim of "BS" must yield to the realities of economics.

The relaity of the economics is that at LP prices a full service dive shop can't make it and the manufacturers want dive professionals representing their products. The high markups that they insist on is how they attempt to attract the representatives that they want. They want their equipment hanging in dive shops infront of students. If the markup isn't enough their equipment won't be there. Their just trying to keep out the undesireable elements. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

Oh, what I said before and the fact that they allready have the volume cause places like LP get the stuff some place. Yhe manufacturers like the way it is. they have their cake and they get to eat it.

 

[GlockDiver]

So, if LeisurePro doesn't get their equipment from the manufacturer, then where do they get it?

 

[MikeFerrara]

GlockDiver once bubbled...
So, if LeisurePro doesn't get their equipment from the manufacturer, then where do they get it?

That is the $64 question. All I can tell you is that it's a FACT that without a full service dive shop in a retail area there are very few items from very few companies that I can get. And none of that is name brand stuff. There are a bunch of off-brand names that I can't get either.