The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[scubasean]

Genesis once bubbled...

Mike also says that shops won't band together to stop the lunacy. That makes them active co-conspirators - which just underlines the point that we, as divers, should aim at the shops - not only because they are the interface to the manufacturers, but also because they are direct co-conspirators in the problem!

Although I agree with the problems that have been mentioned, I do not agree that the failure to band together with your competitors is a showing of conspiracy.

I also agree that the shops have the most opportunity to address the issues, but the shops are all competing with each other....The consumer has the most power...

Based on your idea of what a conspiracy is, isn't the failure of individuals to band together and resolve the problem also a conspiracy? (Again, I do not support this "conspiracy" definition...)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some certainly are co-conspirators. The old timmers want to go back to the time when the only source of equipment and info was the diveshop. That's one reason why shops won't work together. Another reason is that the shop who are good at the game are able to make enough off new divers who don't know anything yet. You know too much so they would rather not have you around talking to people anyway.

And then there's people like me who didn't find out how the industry works til I was in lock stock and barrel. Speaking for myself, I won't have the manufacturers beating me up because I'm not selling enough and the consumer beating me up because it's too expensive. In fact, I don't think I'll let myself get beat up at all anymore. LOL Really though I've already lost too much and see too little to be gained by spending the rest of my life trying rally shop owners to fix an industry for a bunch of people who are happy with it the way it is.

Lets face it, I say training is lousy because I've seen enough to have something to compare. Most of the divers here, however, defend the state of dive training. People are happy getting cheap classes from the local shop who can't dive for crap and buying regs from LP who doesn't know anything about or care anything about diving. Who wants it fixed? So far there's you, me and a few who signed up on your website.

The people who really do a lot of diving and need lots of equipment like technical divers, cave divers and motivated people like you have always worked outside the system. Educated divers have always known it was messed up and found ways to be independant of it. For instance, I know a guy who for several years was the biggest OMS dealer in the country if not the world. He has never owned a dive shop. He does, however, know many of the technical pioneers some of whome started or run companies like diverite and OMS so he can get stuff. He was the biggest OMS dealer because he knows more technical divers than any shop will ever see and they buy from him. These people don't buy stuff in diveshops, they never have and they never will. they've always been able to get reg parts and they mix their own gas.

the average diver though especially a new one is fair game. As I said before, cheap equipment from LP doesn't solve the issue. People are going to the same guy they don't trust enough to buy equipment from for their training. If you think he does a rotten job of selling you equipment you should know what he's done to your class. I'm glad I don't need any more classes.

 

[5615mike]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
.....If divers don't want to subsidise training with their equipment dollars (the current model) they'll have to make theselves clear about it. In the end it's the consumer who suffers the most. As owning a LDS becomes less and less attractive there will simply be less people who want to do it. It's divers who have to deal with poor training, bad LDS attitudes or whatever else results from a screwed up model.

Mike, it's tough to make sense of this. You have said before that LDS survive on NEW divers, people who have not yet decided to dive...... How in the world can you blame those people who have not even tried it yet? "They'll have to make themselves clear about it"????? They don't even know it yet. Your making your way to "blame" current divers who don't buy from LDSs when you said it yourself that your bread and butter in the business is new divers........explain what your getting at here.

 

[JohnF]

Genesis once bubbled...
Look, I understand Mike's point - the pressure has to be put on the manufacturers. He's right.

However, as consumers, we have no means to do that directly. We don't deal with them directly. The shops do.

So, the only means we have to put that pressure on is to do so through the shops.

How is putting the squeeze on the little guys gonna square away the manufacturers and distributors? All you've advocated is killing the little guys by taking the business to the big online/mailorder guys. How does this put pressure on the manufacturers and/or distributors.

As a matter of fact, you're probably playing right into their hands with this little play. They'll have fewer accounts to deal with and the whole interaction with the end user becomes even more depersonalized, which is a huge advantage in ignoring the little beefs of the consumer. If the small retailer has the end user in his face with a complaint, he's going to be more inclined to protect his own image by going to bat for the consumer than is the big impersonal voice on the other end of the phone or computer who may just give you a slick kissoff and carry on. How is this going to put pressure on the suppliers?

I'll admit I wasn't aware of some of the constraints imposed on the small retailers in the dive biz, but it comes as no surprise. I spent about 6 years on different sides of that fence when the snowmobile business was in it's heyday. The dealer network then was not dissimilar to the current LDS situation, although there wasn't the added problem of the online retailers to compound the little guys' difficulties.

I realize it's harder to tackle the manufacturers than it is to beat up on the little guys, but I don't see much merit in your ongoing attacks on the LDS's if you really do understand what Mike's saying, unless it's just how you get your kicks. Show a little imagination and take the side of the LDS's against the manufacturers. Wear their shoes for a while. You occasionally demonstrate vestiges of a clue on how commerce percolates, and have the enthusiasm to push the cause, and the wit to do it well. But beating up on the little retailers in favour of the e-shops doesn't evoke strong feelings of support from me.

I want a friendly knowledgeable local shop where I can go for equipment and personal service, training and friendly advice, and not pay through the nose for it. What I'm hearing is that I'm not the only one who values those things and wouldn't begrudge paying a slightly higher retail price in return for those percs which may never be available to your Anti-LDS Commune.

Respectfully
JohnF

 

[MikeFerrara]

5615mike once bubbled...


Mike, it's tough to make sense of this. You have said before that LDS survive on NEW divers, people who have not yet decided to dive...... How in the world can you blame those people who have not even tried it yet? "They'll have to make themselves clear about it"????? They don't even know it yet. Your making your way to "blame" current divers who don't buy from LDSs when you said it yourself that your bread and butter in the business is new divers........explain what your getting at here.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was mostly refering to the objections that some have voiced to subsidising training with their equipment dollars. It isn't the new divers. If you buy a reg from an LDS that big markup that you object to pays the rent so that the shop can teach OW classes at a low price. If training wasn't a loss leader and it cost what it needed to in order to be a profit center your reg could be a little cheaper (manufacturers policies aside of course)

As it is right now, at first glance, divers have their cake and get to eat it too. They get a cheap class and if some one educates them they can go to LP for a cheap reg while the dumb sap that does buy a reg at the shop pays the bill. That sounds good accept the manufacturer still does ok. The diver might make out ok if the class was any good but many aren't and there is very little financial incentive for the shop to change that. It has to fast and tought by a low wage person. As divers spend more with LP the shops shorten classes and the agencies reduce requirements so they can. It's all connected. Training will continue to be a loss leader until the manufacturers change their practices. Why should they change? While many are quick to badmouth the LDS still use scubapro and aqualung regs.

I won't buy a product from either one.

 

[5615mike]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
.........

As it is right now, at first glance, divers have their cake and get to eat it too. They get a cheap class and if some one educates them they can go to LP for a cheap reg while the dumb sap that does buy a reg at the shop pays the bill. That sounds good accept the manufacturer still does ok. ........
I won't buy a product from either one.

Now were getting to the bottom of the real issue here. The Mfg don't really care how there products get to the end user as long as they continue to secure ample profit. Now I think they put up a front about the "authorized dealer" bit but that just looks good to the LDSs'. If there are "gray market" products out there and mfg made the same profit.......they don't care.

IMO there should be more emphasis or heat put on mfg's for their poor practices than us divers who are just trying to save a buck or two so we can dive more which is what we want to do in the first place. I don't dive locally. The only time I get to dive is when I travel to Carribean or MX. Several of those trips a year are not cheep anymore.

 

[JohnF]

5615mike once bubbled...

If there are "gray market" products out there and mfg made the same profit.......they don't care.

Not necessarily true. The manufacturer doesn't want a bunch of their brands out there without service support. If a boatload of brand "X" hits the market thru unauthorized resellers who will support that product? Brand "X" may accept responsibly and honour the warranty under some circumstances, but with some products the trail needs to be pretty clear for the manufacturer to accept responsibility. Otherwise they could get stuck with a raft of second hand and out of warranty products that may simply have been abused or over-used as in a rental scenario. But guess who the end user will vilify if the warranty isn't "honoured"? If the products are dispensed through a company authorized outlet then they have some sort of record and the personal knowledge of the LDS and his service staff. If they refuse the coverage on grey market goods then they get a bad rap for not honouring their warranty despite the fact that the owner knows they didn't acquire the stuff thru proper channels.

IMO there should be more emphasis or heat put on mfg's for their poor practices than us divers who are just trying to save a buck or two so we can dive more which is what we want to do in the first place. I don't dive locally. The only time I get to dive is when I travel to Carribean or MX. Several of those trips a year are not cheep anymore.

I believe that's what Mike is saying. What can you do to help?

JohnF

 

[MikeFerrara]

5615mike once bubbled...


Now were getting to the bottom of the real issue here. The Mfg don't really care how there products get to the end user as long as they continue to secure ample profit. Now I think they put up a front about the "authorized dealer" bit but that just looks good to the LDSs'. If there are "gray market" products out there and mfg made the same profit.......they don't care.

IMO there should be more emphasis or heat put on mfg's for their poor practices than us divers who are just trying to save a buck or two so we can dive more which is what we want to do in the first place. I don't dive locally. The only time I get to dive is when I travel to Carribean or MX. Several of those trips a year are not cheep anymore.

That's exactly what I advocate is heat on the manufacturers.

At the same time I try to tell divers what's going on (at least the parts that I know.

Dive gear is expensive because it's a low volume specialty market, not because LDS owners are getting rich by being crooks. In fact non of the diveshops around here support a family. All the owners I know have other sources of income. In my case, I never even got my start-up costs back.

The manufacturers requirements were probably originally put in place to keep non-diveshops out of the market. Inland diveshops don't make money on air or entry level training yet those things are a barrier to entry. It would be far easier and cheaper to get into the dive equipment retail business if you didn't have to teach and provide air. BTW, most manufacturers require those things of their dealers. Those requirements do three things. It keeps some people out of the business, it insures that divers have those services and it cretes the market.

If I could sell large volumes of equipment online like LP why in the hell would I mess with a compressor or teach diving? In this area a compressor for selling air is not cost justifiable. Why would I provide the labor, cost or risk of teaching? For that matter why would I leave the keyboard? If I sold most stuff online and out of the area why would I be concerned with teaching to create a local market. I would let some one else go through the low paying work and risk. Currently LP has us to do the free stuff for them. They were smart enough to spot a situation and come up with a way to take advantage.

Now, lets say that I have this online business and I have somehow found a way to keep supplied with stuff to sell and making plenty of money. How much do you think I would charge if I did decide to teach? I guess it wouldn't matter it would be stupid to expose myself the the risk for such a low return venture. Even if I charged 60 or a hundred dollars an hour, how many online or phone orders could be processed in that same hour?

Air? Most of the tanks I fill are my own rental tanks for classes but at one time I figured out what I would have to charge for a tank of air if I wanted a two year pay back on the cost of the compressor. I didn't figure in the bank system, gas mixing equipment and only part of the other expenses. Based on the amount of air we sell I would have to charge $25 for an Al 80. Nobody would pay that and all the commercial sites have air on site so the bottom line is that I would not sell air. Since I need the compressor for teaching it's more important to me to keep the hours down on the machine. In fact when our regular divers are going to a site that has air and they don't need a special gas, I encourage them to get it there. Them buying air from me just puts hours on the compressor that I can't afford and if it breaks down then I'm really screwed. Shoot, the air I sold this year didn't even pay for the new seperator that I had to install in Feb.

Servicing equipment? Why? The same economics apply. My time would be better spent at the computer and on the phone looking for deals on equipment.

The last few months since we started selling through the mail I probably sold ten times as much by mail as I did in the store over the same period. Guess what? Paying rent and insurance on the store started looking damn stupid, especially when it ate up 100% of the income. The store in gone. So far sales hasn't dropped off. I'm sure it will eventually if I don't put up an online store or something but it hasn't yet. As long as I can get gear there isn't any reason to teach, sell gas or have a show room. Maybe lots of you don't care but there are people in town who will miss the shop.

 

[JohnF]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Maybe lots of you don't care but there are people in town who will miss the shop.

I like dive shops, and they should like me. The last one I wandered into I was about $400 CDN poorer but I was the proud owner of a few new first stages. That was the stop when the shop guy fixed my Halcyon inflator free of charge and installed a DIN conversion unit on a DS4 free of charge (after I'd purchased it). He offered to do it. No coercion on my part. The prices were roughly comparable to what Dive Inn wanted for the same thing but they couldn't have offered to install or repair anything on the spot for me. I like that about a good shop.

 

[jbichsel]

Bitter? It sure sounds that way.

Fortunately, I had one of the bes instructors there is when I learned to dive. That's why I'm driving 800 miles, one way, to have him for my IDC.

I agree there is no substitute for quality instruction. Paying $40 for a pair of fins that sell for $120 at an LDS, won't help if you can't perform an ESA from 100'.

However, having insight at the retail markup on dive gear, I am not surprised that many people are going online for equipment. I am for certain items. The money I save on some things lets me put the savings into better, higher end regulators, BC's and training from my CD.

Sadly, economic conditions and greed have caused LDS prices to become insane. Manufacturing CEO's, COO's, CFO's all have a need to "keep up with the Jones'", buy a bigger house, nicer car, etc., which puts them in need to handcuff the LDS owner to charge certain minimums.

Union labor causes the "brick and mortar" of a dive shop to escalate. Insurance premiums, energy costs, travel to dive locations, etc.

Where I live, we only have two dive shops about 20 miles away (until I get my OWSI). If we want to get in water warmer than 50 degrees for OW cert, we drive 6 hours to Blue Hole in NM. This causes the cost of certification to be higher than many other places. From some of the divers I am seeing coming out of these places, the higher cost is not necessarily equating to higher quality. The cost of just classroom and confined water WITHOUT materials, is what a full certification with materials costs in many places in Texas.

I agree that LDS need to stay in business and be supported. But they need to have the ability and desire to attract a buying clientel. The manufacturers are partly to blame and maybe mostly. But there are other factors and faults to spread around.