The Golden Rule v. Dive Deposits

[Altamira]

I was recently on a boat out of West Palm Beach where one of a pair of divers got sick, (vomiting over the side), during the surface interval between two dives. The pair sat out the next dive, (which was compassionate/smart on the part of the one who wasn't ill).

I doubt that they received a refund - and I doubt that they asked for o

Even worse, I've seen some dive ops that say that even if the dive op cancels because of weather or mechanical issues, they will not issue a refund, just a credit for a trip some other day. That's little comfort if you live hundreds of miles away and only have limited travel days. I check refund policies very carefully now and don't book with those types of dive ops (they never know the business they don't get).

These are the kind of dive ops that I will never book with.

 

[Wants2divemore]

This sounds like all the 41 dive ops you used asked for an advance payment (whether a deposit or payment in full). Is that correct?

I don't take copious notes, but from what I recall of my dive trips there have been relatively few that did not ask me to send them any money in advance.

Almost but 3 required either a deposit or the entire payment in advance. Some required payment at time of booking, others as it got closer to dive (usually 30 days prior).

 

[Allen-1]

These are the kind of dive ops that I will never book with

Why?

The couple booked the two tank dive, rode out, dove, and sat out the second dive.

 

[pauldw]

First, for those who don't know it, the following is often called the golden rule of diving:

Anyone can call any dive for any reason without any questions.​

​

It means that if someone is uncomfortable with a dive, either before the dive (because of conditions or anything) or during the dive, then the dive is over. Period. You do not in any way try to push someone to do a dive they don't want to do.

I have done many dives over the years, and there have been precious few that I have called. One was when it was snowing and 20° in New Mexico, and my dive buddy was ready to hop in. Nope. Not me. I have awakened feeling sick on the morning of a dive about 3-4 times. On another occasion, I drove two days for a week of cave diving in Florida, only to get a bad cold after the third day. So I have called dives, but it has been pretty rare.

I have recently encountered a dive operation policy that bothers me--a non-refundable deposit. I am not talking about major trips, like liveaboards, where you can protect yourself with trip insurance. I'm talking about small, daily dive boats. I can see why they want it. If they had a borderline number of divers to make a trip profitable and one or two drop out, they don't have a good choice. They can either cancel the trip at the last minute, screwing over the other divers who were ready to go, or they can run the trip at a financial loss. A deposit would make sense to them.

That deposit, however, puts pressure on the diver who has decided that he or she is too sick, or the conditions are too tough to do the dive. You may argue that the diver should be willing to pay that cost, but I think a lot of divers would instead choose to do a dive that may in fact put them at needless risk.

I am writing this after choosing not to do a dive I would have liked because the operator requires payment in advance. I am currently perfectly healthy, but I will not work with an operator that is consciously breaking the golden rule of diving.

Deposits are requirements of many kinds of businesses because without them, flakes will sign up for things, then they'll feel fine cancelling willy nilly, and businesses will lose money. When you lose enough money, you go out of business. Even before that happens, the businesses may well have to cancel other people's trips if the boat doesn't have enough people on it. Deposits encourage people to be serious. They're a balancing of interests, your interests not being the only ones that are important. Deposits don't force you to dive. They do require you think a little more seriously about the commitments you make that other people depend on.

 

[Altamira]

Why?

The couple booked the two tank dive, rode out, dove, and sat out the second dive.

I was talking about dive ops that do not refund prepaid dive or reservation charges if they cancel for their convenience. As a diver, if I get on the boat and then thumb the dive because of any number of reasons, that is on me. An exception for me is if the dive op goes out in dangerous weather when all the other dive ops canceled. Then I should have thumbed the dive before going out.

 

[fred32176]

Losing a hundred or two hundred dollars because you are sick isn't that much to lose over a day's entertainment. Events like concerts and raft trips don't refund money if you get sick and don't show up, not sure why dive operators would be different.

I've had a dive operator in the keys bend over backward when I had dives scheduled for Monday and Tuesday, got sick eating tacos the night before and couldn't dive either day and they let me dive Wednesday and Thursday instead. They didn't have to do that, but I appreciate that they did.

When I do a Saturday dive out of West Palm arranged through my LDS (doing one this Saturday), I expect to either cancel early enough that someone can take my slot or not get a refund. If the dive operator cancels - due to conditions or whatever, I expect to get a credit for the next dive through my LDS. These policies seem reasonable to me.

I am going on a raft trip on the Colorado river this summer and I had to pre pay all $2000 for it. I believe if you cancel with less than 90 days, you are not due a refund. The rafting company suggests getting trip insurance and say they have a right to cancel any trip at any time. If you are worried about losing money over a dive, get trip insurance.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Losing a hundred or two hundred dollars because you are sick isn't that much to lose over a day's entertainment. Events like concerts and raft trips don't refund money if you get sick and don't show up, not sure why dive operators would be different. . . . I am going on a raft trip on the Colorado river this summer and I had to pre pay all $2000 for it. I believe if you cancel with less than 90 days, you are not due a refund. The rafting company suggests getting trip insurance and say they have a right to cancel any trip at any time. If you are worried about losing money over a dive, get trip insurance.

The problem with relying on insurance is that for a claim to be successful you generally have to seek medical attention and get some proof. And even then there may be a deductible below which you can't make a claim. In keeping with the golden rule, I believe the threshold level of feeling ill for deciding it would be best if I didn't attempt to dive should generally be lower than the threshold for me not attending a concert. I don't think there is any way around having to eat the cost of a dive/deposit in case of simply not feeling up to it. So many things can go wrong on a dive even when you feel your best, why take chances by adding a possibly aggravating circumstance? You just have to factor into the budget for this hobby that every so many dives you're going to wisely decide to sit one out and likely lose a deposit (or more).

 

[Seameadow]

Maybe you (we) are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

I think the focus should be more on the Golden Rule decision making and the the drivers of that decision process than the deposit question.

Losing a deposit is just one pressure on a diver to not call a dive they are not completely confident in doing. It could be you want to do it to "not let your buddy down", maybe it is the one epic dive you have been trying to do for years, or you have made a huge investment in time, effort and logistics to get it set up, especially complex technical dives and so on.

In my experience NOT getting in the water, when you have that one piece of equipment just not perfect, or something else on the edge of your comfort zone is much harder than pushing through and doing the dive.

The right attitude and culture to cultivate would be that, it doesn't matter what the cost or inconvenience is, it is much better to walk away from a dive and dive again tomorrow than the push through and well,,,not.

Isn't that the origin or point of the golden rule. Any diver for any reason. It is meant that so that pressures of time, money, inconvenience, disappointment etc can not be held against the diver deciding not to dive. So that we make the right decisions without that guilt.

External factors, such as deposits and pressures will always be there, we can however control how we respond to them and whether we make the safer choice regardless.