The case against ditchable weight

[Storker]

Sounds remarkably like an equipment solution to a skills problem.

Sure. Show me your skillz in staying comfortably buoyant in a bit of chop while wearing a wing with marginal lift. Ditching a few pounds (or kilos) will make life a lot easier for you in a situation like that and may mean the difference between "dead" and "alive".

I'm simply reporting the net effect of the current instruction. It routinely produces new divers that believe they need ditchable ballast for every configuration.

There are a lot of things you don't "need", but which makes life easier. If I'm adding lead to my rig, some of that will be ditchable. For two reasons: The aforementioned perk of being able to take it off and hand it to the boat tender to make it easier for me to climb aboard, and, more importantly, the option to increase my buoyancy from "just enough" to "ample" if I find myself on the surface and don't know when I'll be picked up. Or if I have to climb ashore on a cliff with a bit of waves around me. I prefer floating high rather than bobbing with my nose barely above the surface if I'm ever in a situation like that, and neither of those situations are extremely unlikely.

I have had many ask, after I have explained that with little to no exposure suit that their regulator and bare bones BP&W is likely all the ballast they will need, if they should add a weight belt so they will have something to drop.

I agree that that's pretty stupid.

Start with a naked, fit diver and hand them a reg, full al 80 and a kydex plate and harness. They are now about -6lbs. Should they add a belt so they have something to drop?

We both know that's silly

I also agree with you that that's silly.

I think if you compared the frequency of having to ditch weights for safety vs accidental loss of weights due to quick due to pocket/belt failure, the latter would be more common.

OTOH, the risk of dying from not being able to ditch would be significantly bigger than the risk of dying from an accidental loss of weight. At least for a dive within NDL, and since we're in Basic I don't think deco diving is very relevant to the discussion. While shooting to the surface and dying from DCS is a well-known risk for tec divers, it's not a particularly common cause of death for rec divers. They are much more likely to die from making it to the surface and either drowning there or sinking back down. As a rec diver, I'd rather be bent than drowned.

 

[cool_hardware52]

There are a lot of things you don't "need", but which makes life easier. If I'm adding lead to my rig, some of that will be ditchable. For two reasons: The aforementioned perk of being able to take it off and hand it to the boat tender to make it easier for me to climb aboard, and, more importantly, the option to increase my buoyancy from "just enough" to "ample" if I find myself on the surface and don't know when I'll be picked up. Or if I have to climb ashore on a cliff with a bit of waves around me. I prefer floating high rather than bobbing with my nose barely above the surface if I'm ever in a situation like that, and neither of those situations are extremely unlikely.

When have I ever suggested anything to the contrary?

In this very thread I stated the conditions where I encourage divers to configure at least a portion of their ballast as ditchable.

OTOH, the risk of dying from not being able to ditch would be significantly bigger than the risk of dying from an accidental loss of weight. At least for a dive within NDL, and since we're in Basic I don't think deco diving is very relevant to the discussion. While shooting to the surface and dying from DCS is a well-known risk for tec divers, it's not a particularly common cause of death for rec divers. They are much more likely to die from making it to the surface and either drowning there or sinking back down. As a rec diver, I'd rather be bent than drowned.

Bingo, yet we have contributors here that continuously argue in favor of over weighing vs minimal weighting.

Clearly the *exact* *same* *risks* are present with both the unplanned loss of ballast and the (small) chance a diver might be slightly positive leaving their shallow stop.

For unexplained reasons you found it necessary to lock a thread where this exact risks were being discussed.


Tobin

 

[Damselfish]

Not sure I agree with the dislike against Velcro. I'm sure not all pockets are the same and we know nothing lasts forever. But my $10 mesh weight pocket with 4"x2" of velcro ain't ditching itself. A good amount of force is required to open my pockets. Now, if your velcro is covered in seaweed and sand (how does one get covered in sand during a dive?), that's on you for not maintaing your gear. In ~5-10 years I may have to replace the $10 pocket as the velcro will have been worn out, but the same can be said for plastic clips/buckles and other weight systems. One benefit of Velcro is simplicity. Not only for myself, but it's pretty self explanatory to a dive buddy. Whereas some of these weight integrated system need a manual to understand how they function. To each his own, but don't be surprised if I'm looking at you cross eyed when you explain how to ditch your weight. True story.

I've known people with fairly new expensive BCs with weight pockets that relied on Velcro that did ditch themselves. Partly poor design. But also Velcro can wear pretty quickly depending on the design, how you're pulling on it, and how often - failure having nothing to do with poor maintenance/seaweed/sand. And when weight pockets get lost from one of those BCs, they tend to be expensive and possibly difficult to replace. So yes, even if you've got something that works for you there are good reasons for the general dislike of Velcro, and the fact that they've pretty much stopped selling BCs like that.

 

[Nemrod]

I wear my mask on my forehead for 47 years and and plan to continue to do so and never once can I recall having lost my mask as a result. If it makes me look amateur, fine by me. But meanwhile, there have been at least several accidents wherein divers without ditchable weight including weight under their harness that have been plastered to the bottom. N

 

[Colliam7]

I wear my mask on my forehead for 47 years and and plan to continue to do so and never once can I recall having lost my mask as a result. If it makes me look amateur, fine by me.

LOL! OK, James, is it safe to conclude that you truly are 'an old dog' (47 years translated to dog years is . . .) and the box of new tricks should be put back on the shelf? In the case of the OP, he is a much newer diver, and I wonder if the several posters who have picked up on his photo (which, I readily admit, had absolutely nothing to do with the questions that he has asked) are hoping that he can be taught new tricks. At the very least, one 'new' trick could be to change his picture, so posters don't keep commenting on it.

 

[doctormike]

At the very least, one 'new' trick could be to change his picture, so posters don't keep commenting on it.

He could change it to this:

 

[Colliam7]

In the PADI OWD materials, there is great emphasis on being ready, able, and willing to ditch your weights. For a panicked or otherwise poorly coping diver who is already on the surface, that makes sense.

And, that is a primary emphasis in teaching the skill - the PADI OWD Manual even states 'It is never wrong to drop your weights at the surface. If in doubt, don't hesitate: drop your weights.' But, two bullets below that, the manual also makes the point that 'Dropping weights underwater risks an uncontrolled ascent, so only do so if you are unsure you could reach the surface any other way.'

But at depth, it's not going to save you

I am not sure that I would go that far. Again referencing the PADI OWD materials, you may recall that there are 4 outlined responses to an OOA situation: 1. Normal ascent, when you are low on air, but not OOA; 2. Alternate Air Source Ascent, when you buddy is near; 3. Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent, when your buddy is too far away to provide AAS assistance, and 4. Buoyant Emergency Ascent (aka Uncontrolled Buoyant Ascent), when when your buddy is too far away to provide AAS support, and you are too deep to safely / successfully perform a CESA. The thinking with # 4 is, better bent than dead. I would certainly agree that it MAY NOT save you. But, if you are out of air at 80 feet, and no buddy or redundant air supply is available, it may be your best option.

. . . and accidental releases have resulted in accidents and fatalities. I read one report where someone spent a week in a hyperbaric chamber because the velcro came loose on their weight pocket.

Yes, there have been accidents associated with accidental weight releases. And, while I agree with one other poster, that a week in a chamber seems a bit long, I personally know a diver - my first dive buddy - who did spend a (not too) pleasant evening on a chamber ride because one of his integrated weight pockets fell out of his BCD when he was inverted at 60+ feet taking a picture (he had failed to zip the weight pocket closed). I wasn't with him on that dive, and I don't know the details other than what he later reported (and I have my suspicions about how 'properly' he was weighted). But, you are nonetheless right, accidental weight release resulting in an uncontrolled buoyant ascent can have serious consequences. Perhaps, the important issue is making sure that divers understand that 'ditcheable' weight does not have mean 'easily lose-able' weight. The case you cited is a good example - I never use weight pockets with only velcro closures. I use trim weight pockets that are a little more expensive than some, but they have both a velcro closure and a quick-release (the Fastex solution Doc mentioned in an earlier post).

 

[boulderjohn]

The PADI OWD course materials make it clear that all ballast should be ditchable except for trim weights that are a small fraction of the total, and place much greater emphasis on making sure that the weight can be released than on making sure it's secure against accidental release.

Please tell me where the PADI materials make this clear? I have been looking through them and not finding it.

Right now I am looking at page 65 of the Open Water Diver manual, and here is what it says about weight systems (emphasis added)

There are several types of weight systems. Regardless of type, the most important feature is a quick release that enables you, in an emergency, to drop enough weight to float even with an uninflated BCD. This is an important safety consideration so that if you have a BCD problem, you could still make yourself float quickly.

When wearing a full wet suit or dry suit, dropping only part of your weights will accomplish this.

 

[halocline]

That is an effective condemnation of badly designed weight release systems, not the concept of releasable weights. That is a separate problem.

Theoretically, yes they are separate problems, but in reality lots of divers use quick release pockets that are not completely reliable. So the issues of ditchable weight and accidental loss are connected.

It's not that I'm against ditchable weight, I just don't think it's necessary in warm water conditions with a properly weighted diver.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think weight integrated BC's are flawed both in concept and in design of every different style unit I've seen.
First off, IMO having all weight put into the BC is a bad idea. If the diver ever needed to remove the BC at depth for any reason, the unit goes down and the diver goes up. This leaves the diver holding onto his lifeline for dear life.
I prefer the system where both the diver and rig are neutral at depth.
I also take issue with the modern way of weighting where a fully suited diver cannot stay on the surface with a deflated BC and a full tank. I can't think of a time when a diver should be weighted so heavily that if their BC fails on the surface they will sink, even with a full tank.
I think way to much reliance has been placed on the BC for mandatory surface floatation because of overweighting, and that would also mean that the BC would then become an "elevator" device during the dive as well.
How many people have you heard about that surface in distress then sink back down and drown. If the diver was weighted properly they would have to fight to get back down, especially at the end of a dive.
The only time I could see a diver possibly being neutral or very slightly negative at the surface would be in warm water with just a bathing suit on.