The case against ditchable weight

[archer1960]

I can see the point now. Unless buddy breathing is practiced all the time and BOTH parties are exceedingly proficient it could become a real problem.
Two breaths turn into three, turn into four, next thing you know one diver refuses to give up the reg, an underwater fist fight breaks out, both divers freak and it's over.

Back to ditchable weight.
I think some should be ditchable, maybe half of the total unless the rig alone and components render the diver neutral, then no need for ditchable weight. The weight should be separate from the rig in a format that is easily ditched but should be securely attached to the diver until such time as needed to be jettisoned. It should also be removable quickly and easily by another person if needed.
None of these include integrated weight pockets of any sort, IMO.

If you specify that the ditchable weight must be separate from the rig, then obviously integrated weights will never qualify. However, I don't see that as a requirement. Just that they must be secure (no velcro!), and easy to locate and remove by your or your buddy even with heavy gloves. I think the ones on my Aeris Atmos qualify. I have tried, and the clips are big and easy to operate with dry or 5mm wet gloves, and the squeeze clips are in the pull handle so I don't need to move my hands from the time I press the clips to pull them out. I haven't tried it, but I expect I could remove them with 3-finger gloves if needed. I can also put them in with the gloves on, and there is an easily audible snap when the clips engage so I know when they're secure. The handles are also a light color, so are easy to see against the dark color of the BC.

 

[Colliam7]

Please tell me where the PADI materials make this clear? I have been looking through them and not finding it. Right now I am looking at page 65 of the Open Water Diver manual, and here is what it says about weight systems (emphasis added)

I can't give you a page # in the OW manual, but I still remember that one of the questions on my OW "exam" involved rating alternative actions for an OOA situation at depth. Ditching weights was the absolute last resort. Colliam7's list looks eerily familiar.

What I put in my post to the OP came from P. 74, and P. 160-161, of the (new) Open Water manual.

 

[boulderjohn]

I can see the point now. Unless buddy breathing is practiced all the time and BOTH parties are exceedingly proficient it could become a real problem.
Two breaths turn into three, turn into four, next thing you know one diver refuses to give up the reg, an underwater fist fight breaks out, both divers freak and it's over.

[hijack]The following details are from memory....

Several decades ago, Dr. Glenn Egstrom of UCLA, formerly the leader of NAUI, published a study that said it took an average 17 successful buddy breathing experiences in initial training before a buddy team could be sure of performing the skill successfully in a real situation. He further said that regular practice was required to ensure that the team could continue to function at that level. In the only case I know of in which it was attempted recently, a woman whose rental gear did not include an alternate air source attempted to buddy breathe with an OOA diver in Florida. Both divers drowned.[/hijack]

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

LOL! Don't confuse Eric's fantasy with your reality!

A combination of: The fine art of tuning weighting to perfection, suit squeeze, suit cooling, and breath control.

---------- Post added December 3rd, 2015 at 12:26 PM ----------

If you specify that the ditchable weight must be separate from the rig, then obviously integrated weights will never qualify. However, I don't see that as a requirement. Just that they must be secure (no velcro!), and easy to locate and remove by your or your buddy even with heavy gloves. I think the ones on my Aeris Atmos qualify. I have tried, and the clips are big and easy to operate with dry or 5mm wet gloves, and the squeeze clips are in the pull handle so I don't need to move my hands from the time I press the clips to pull them out. I haven't tried it, but I expect I could remove them with 3-finger gloves if needed. I can also put them in with the gloves on, and there is an easily audible snap when the clips engage so I know when they're secure. The handles are also a light color, so are easy to see against the dark color of the BC.

Yes, you are correct, integrated weights will never qualify in my world.
One BC, the Aeris Atmos? who's going to know this unless they happen to stumble upon this BC by accident.
Who buys Aeris anyway? I've never even seen any Aeris stuff at dive shops, only online at Leisure pro (and the like) as a discount brand.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Who buys Aeris anyway? I've never even seen any Aeris stuff at dive shops, only online at Leisure pro (and the like) as a discount brand.

Nobody

The Aeris line from Pelagic has been discontinued.

Tobin

 

[archer1960]

A combination of: The fine art of tuning weighting to perfection, suit squeeze, suit cooling, and breath control.

---------- Post added December 3rd, 2015 at 12:26 PM ----------


Yes, you are correct, integrated weights will never qualify in my world.
One BC, the Aeris Atmos? who's going to know this unless they happen to stumble upon this BC by accident.
Who buys Aeris anyway? I've never even seen any Aeris stuff at dive shops, only online at Leisure pro (and the like) as a discount brand.

Oceanic owns the brand name now. They make the same BC under their brand.

 

[cool_hardware52]

If the diver will not sink with an empty BCD and a full tank how will they hold a safety stop with an empty BCD and a close to empty tank? They will be 5 to 7 lb positive.

Not if they are wearing a thick(ish) wetsuit.

15 fsw is almost 1.5 ATA. Wetsuits compress *alot* from the surface to 15 ft.

Don't believe me? On your next dive in 7mm suit get neutral at the surface, i.e. dump just enough gas that you are eyelevel at the surface with a full tank.

Now swim down to 15 ft without adding any gas to your BC.

Do you expect to become negative, positive, or stay neutral at 15 ft?

My goal for single tank diving in buoyant suits is have zero gas in my wing at my shallow stop when my tank is empty.

With a slowly rebounding wetsuit the ascent to the surface leaving my last stop is a long slow leisurely affair requiring almost zero input from me.

Of course I almost never leave a shallow stop with an empty tank and if I do a long slow ascent is not really on the menu. but it does mean the bubble in my wing is very small.

Now contrast that with the ascent at the conclusion of a typical tech dive. If the dive went well I usually have about 1/2 of the gas I started with (in various bottles) that means I could well be 10-12 or more lbs negative. That means I need a fair amount of gas in my wing and or dry suit. That makes me a busy boy between 10 ft and the surface as the gas bubble needs active management to prevent corking.

Wetsuits compress. If they didn't divers wouldn't need BC's.....

Tobin

 

[Kairoos]

My Zeagle express tech has ditchable weights. It's their "zip touch" weight system (Zip Touch Weight System). There are two flaps that are secured by velcro and the velcro takes a lot of force to undo. It helps that there's a zippered section at the top where you put the weight in, so you're not undoing the velcro all the time, which IMO would weaken the strength of the velcro over time. I don't see a way that the weight could accidentally be dropped with this system, it takes a lot of force to undo both sets of velcro (and the flaps are pulled in opposite directions, one up, one down).

Now I would not use a BC that has an insert you put the weight into, and then slide the insert into the BC. I've seen those come out way too many times, in fact it happened during a dive I was on two weeks ago, and it was recovered. Replacements are too expensive, and if you lose/break it on the boat, good luck.

I don't think having ditchable weight in a system that is secure is a detriment at all...

 

[Nemrod]

I have never dropped weights underwater that I can recall at the moment but I have dropped weights on the surface, during actual diver rescue or shall we say an assist. And more than once.

I used to pick up rocks on the bottom to use as ballast, pre-BC, but I would drop those at ascent. I could never find a good place to keep them. Does that count?

When one argues against the obvious it is usually obvious that you are wrong. Just a general non-scientific observation of human nature.

I think Aeris products are still available, Oceanic is the owner now and their Accel fins are fun.

N

 

[BRT]

So you think your 7 mil loses 5 lbs from surface to 15'? Maybe but my 3 mil doesn't.