Hello from Kansas

[Marie13]

I appreciate where you are coming from and don't want to pester you. I've heard you. I get that the scuba community doesn't want to be associated with this type of thing. And yes, I see that on eBay the sellers of rebreathers are asking at least $5K, which is outside my budget. That they want to see proof of training should not be a problem -- or how much does that one course cost? Surely under $1000? That I could afford.)

For anyone else reading, I may have said it above, but at gas suppliers like Praxair, where my friend gets his welding gas, the medical oxygen and the industrial oxygen come from the same container and manifold. Even one of the industrial gas companies has explained why that is the case. The difference is in the chain of custody of the tank. I'd buy my own new tanks and insist on getting them back after each fill. I'm good with it. If I die with $8,000 in the bank, at least my family can afford to bury me. Just think of some extreme sport that has a high likelihood of harming the athlete, and compare this to that -- I'll tank my chances on this. And I don't even snowboard or ski, or commute on a motorcycle.

Buying even a used RB and the associated training is likely going to tank your budget.

Also, instructors are going to ask why you’re getting into RB. Are you going to lie about that? Your plan has very little hope of succeeding.

 

[Lim]

If these concussions you had were so bad that your doctor wants you to have HBOT therapy to recover from them, would you even be a candidate for dive training? The medical form requires a doctor’s signature if you check yes to any of the listed conditions. Head injuries and neurological conditions are listed. Or would just lie and not answer yes to those questions?

That's a fair question.

The study was about mild head head injuries, from which 25% of people fail to recover completely. Mine occurred years before my first dive training, and back then, I didn't even think of them because I hadn't even had medical care for them in the first place. Not even an exam. No diagnosis.

In fact, we still don't know for sure that I've had head injuries. I only know that I hit my head and my doc only knows that because I told her so, 30 years after the fact.

Who among us hasn't hit their head? Do you just assume that you haven't had a concussion, or do you "lie" and say you haven't had one?

I'm sure my doc would sign off on dive training, if I ask before she knows that it may cost her $8,000 in revenue.

BTW, according to at least one study, normal scuba, and the conditions created in the body by normal scuba (pressure effects and oxygen effects) have been found useful in treating various medical conditions. The "side effects" of controlled exposure to normal scuba situations are therapeutic when the dose is small. It's a hormesis thing, analogous to intermitent fasting and other sources of "eustress."

I get that the scuba community would not want to promote this, because health claims for anything outside of regulated medical situations are "radioactive," figuratively speaking. But you may have had a hunch that scuba is good for you, and maybe it is...

 

[Lim]

Buying even a used RB and the associated training is likely going to tank your budget.

Also, instructors are going to ask why you’re getting into RB. Are you going to lie about that? Your plan has very little hope of succeeding.

Fair enough.

I can say "multiple reasons, including health benefits of scuba." Not a lie.

Nobody has said "you can't rent an oxygen rebreather," but I'm assuming that's true because the some of the responses don't make sense unless that's the case. It's okay, some things kinda go without saying, among sufficiently smart people.

 

[Marie13]

I’m going to come right out and say it. This is an extremely stupid idea. It’s dangerous. You expect dive buddies to go along with it? Once anyone gets a hint of what you want to do, they’ll probably want to not have a danged thing to do with you. Liability issues are a huge thing in the scuba industry.

You can’t rent rebreathers without training. And RB training is about most expensive training there is.

However, you seem to think you’ll do this regardless of what anyone says.

You’re a great candidate for the Darwin Awards.

 

[Edward3c]

When we talk about rebreathers we do not mean O2 rebreathers. They haven't been used in diving for decades. Todays rebreathers use either air or helium as the diluent to keep the O2 pp levels within 0.3bar.

 

[Lim]

There are three things I want to address:
1. Before you can enroll on a rebreather course you’ll need to provide proof of recent diving experience with mandatory deco stops, not just qualifications (PADI OW is unlikely to be enough).

2. The company that supplies you industrial O2 in breathing tanks is opening up their liability. Therefore, are unlikely to do it.

3. There are potential side effects from breathing O2 at high concentrations. The max O2 partial pressure in diving is now considered 1.4 with some manufacturers advising a max of 1.3. The advantage of rebreathers is they supply O2 at a constant 0.3 throughout the depth range, the exception is the first 5m or so.

I’ve attempted to run the dive profiles you posted on some dive planning software. The software will not accept the parameters as its so far outside safe limits. You get an O2 hit whilst underwater, YOU’RE DEAD. I don’t want to read about that.

Thanks. That's all good to know, except:

1. Some of the parameters divers consider unsafe are the parameters some doctors consider therapeutic. The side effects cause stress in the body, which is a good thing because of the responses the body produces. Here's one study and a letter which summarizes a lot of other ones:

Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Can Improve Post Concussion Syndrome Years after Mild Traumatic Brain Injury - Randomized Prospective Trial
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/neu.2012.2799

Harm reduction is knowing the person is going to do the thing and offering any advice to minimize the risk of doing it anyway. You're not into that personally, I get it. Most aren't, I get it. But some are. I can almost guarantee there are some scuba divers who are medical personnel who hand out needles to heroin addicts, and at least a subset society sees that as a service.

"I don't want to hear about" is making it about you. If I want to spare the scuba community any embarrassment, I will have to do it in some way that doesn't rely on the scuba community.

2. My friend who's a welder assured me multiple times that a gas company like Praxair doesn't care why a customer wants the oxygen. No questions asked. (Maybe this information is analogous to an "attractive nuisance," and for their own good, we don't tell our kids the truth about everything; I get that.)

 

[Lim]

When we talk about rebreathers we do not mean O2 rebreathers. They haven't been used in diving for decades. Todays rebreathers use either air or helium as the diluent to keep the O2 pp levels within 0.3bar.

Ah! That explains a lot. Thanks.

 

[Lim]

I’m going to come right out and say it. This is an extremely stupid idea. It’s dangerous. You expect dive buddies to go along with it? Once anyone gets a hint of what you want to do, they’ll probably want to not have a danged thing to do with you. Liability issues are a huge thing in the scuba industry.

You can’t rent rebreathers without training. And RB training is about most expensive training there is.

However, you seem to think you’ll do this regardless of what anyone says.

You’re a great candidate for the Darwin Awards.

Fair enough.

And I get the liability thing,

I may need to go befriend some penniless junkies. Or pay someone (a non-diver) to sit in a boat above me, with some kind of deadman switch arrangement (I am still have engineering skills) to signal them to pull me up if I have any complications. All this -- I mean, reality -- increases the sense of paranoia, which is not the ideal vacation, but it's probably still better than the paranoia of spending my last $8,000 on a long shot with a doctor who plays fast and loose with evidence.

Meanwhile, i am unemployed but can work remotely. To do my job applications from a developing nation in the tropics, where I can afford to pay someone for 40-60 hours of help, doesn't sound like the worst vacation. I can video myself and make a crude documentary, something like "Jackass 21."

Ridicule is fair enough, I know you see me this way, but I'm not very sensitive too it. By now, humiliation is par for the course.

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks. That's all good to know, except:

1. Some of the parameters divers consider unsafe are the parameters some doctors consider therapeutic. The side effects cause stress in the body, which is a good thing because of the responses the body produces. Here's one study and a letter which summarizes a lot of other ones:

Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Can Improve Post Concussion Syndrome Years after Mild Traumatic Brain Injury - Randomized Prospective Trial
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/neu.2012.2799

Harm reduction is knowing the person is going to do the thing and offering any advice to minimize the risk of doing it anyway. You're not into that personally, I get it. Most aren't, I get it. But some are. I can almost guarantee there are some scuba divers who are medical personnel who hand out needles to heroin addicts, and at least a subset society sees that as a service.

"I don't want to hear about" is making it about you. If I want to spare the scuba community any embarrassment, I will have to do it in some way that doesn't rely on the scuba community.

2. My friend who's a welder assured me multiple times that a gas company like Praxair doesn't care why a customer wants the oxygen. No questions asked. (Maybe this information is analogous to an "attractive nuisance," and for their own good, we don't tell our kids the truth about everything; I get that.)

Yes medical compression chambers are used to treat none diving conditions. In fact, most UK diving related decompression incidents are treated by chambers in hospitals. The difference is if the patient has a O2 event (hit) they’re not going to drown. An O2 hit is instantaneous unconsciousness, in the water you will drown.

As there are no bubbles with a rebreather any surface cover wouldn't know if anything was wrong. On open circuit you'd be too deep for the surface cover to get you out in time.

A Darwin award in the making.

 

[mhattenhauer]

I have nothing to add just a question. What symptoms are you having that you are trying to treat with this?