The Buddy system and separation problems

[jimholcomb]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
I agree. Simply having a piece of plastic in your wallet doesn't necessarily mean squat. I recently went back to PADI, after years of being away from them, to get my DM. I really don't place much weight on those certs up to and including rec instructor.

I just shake my head at the prestige *some* think they deserve for simply having a DM or instructor cert. in their back pocket . Drives me crazy sometimes.

Mike

I am of the opinion that a newly ordained DM or OWI CAN be two of the three worst influences on our community and other divers.

 

[Paulb2]

Hi everyone

How can light be used for communication better than hand signals? Assuming that practising a safe buddy system means being able to clearly see a buddies hand signal (during a typical day time dive) at any point during a dive, why use light at all for signalling.
Like sign language, light is a form of visual communication and both require a buddy to be looking in the right direction, yes?

How effective could using lights be in a high panic situation to get: -

1. A buddies attention
2. To operate light equipment

Anyone got an argument for the use of lights?

Paul

 

[WetDane]

Originally posted by Paulb2


How can light be used for communication better than hand signals? Assuming that practising a safe buddy system means being able to clearly see a buddies hand signal (during a typical day time dive) at any point during a dive, why use light at all for signalling.
Like sign language, light is a form of visual communication and both require a buddy to be looking in the right direction, yes?

How effective could using lights be in a high panic situation to get: -

1. A buddies attention
2. To operate light equipment

Anyone got an argument for the use of lights?

Paul

Hey Paul,
I was going to reply to that - but - uhm - I was out diving with Uncle Pug... uter:

so - to start from the top -
ligths - and we are not talking tiny little lights - we are talking 50W Halogen or 10W HID - although the effect can be easily accomplished with smaller lights too.
When on any dive where light is reduced as you descent you will be able to see a light beam, you don't really have to see the entire light and you don't have to look at it - today when we were swimming along at 90 fsw on a casual dive - I just motored because I can see the UP's light shining, I was not consciously looking at it - but the moment he stopped and looked at something - it dissapeared and I stopped and looked back to see him exsamining something up close.
Later I was taking pictures of a sea urchin and when I was done - I just made a ring signal with the light - UP then knew that I was ok and ready to move on.

What is typical about this is that we are communicating without having to turn to look at each others hands, and when I want the attention of UP, I will shine my light in front of him - where I know he will notice it.

This may not be an option if you are diving on a sandy bottom at 15 feet on a sunny day in very clear water - but we were diving in 15 foot viz (which we think is pretty good), on a day with dark snow clouds... and it certainly made a difference.

To get your biuddies attention - there are two things - a light beam in a line, back and forth - this means "Hey - pay attention to me" and is used when you want to communicate further with your hands, check gas, deco, remaining tasks - whatever...
If you are in an emergency - wave the light frantically at your buddy, that means "get your sorry *** over here now" adn is only used when someone is in distress.

The type of lights we use are canisters - you do not turn them on and off - turn on when you get in the water and turn off when you get out - battery and light head are separate, battery is mounted to your bc. This way the light head is just on your hand with a handle keeping it in place and you can point it anywhere you want...

well, I'm pretty sure I missed something - but that is the basics I think.

Big T

 

[budgy]

Hi Paulb2
It depends on the conditions you are used to diving in.
Cold water, bad vis it sometimes starts to get dark at 15m +. Your hand signals in black gloves are not visible unless the buddy shines a light on his hand, even then an ok signal is difficult to see. You are better off signalling a circle with the lamp. Short of breath need to stop; in bad vis the buddy is out of sight in a moment but the flashing light halts him. These skills may not be needed if poor vis means 20 metre's, but when vis is 2-3 metre and dark you need to remain close to touching distance, or lose your buddy and have to surface to look for him. Some will use a tether, I haven't tried it. Dive buddy's must be trained not to swim or make large movements of the hands and arms, because in close formation, hand movements can dislodge a mask or regulator.

 

[Paulb2]

Hi

So in low vis situations light can be used to replace hand signals (at least the most basic hand signals).

Is there a specific ‘light code’ or is this something that should be set up/ or changes between buddy divers?

In regards to the main discussion: Can light communication be used by divers to keep a clear track of their buddy from close up to further away? In other words can light communication be used to allow divers greater personal freedom to explore individually (assuming they wanted to) because they can keep track and signal clearly from a greater distance (relative to the environment)

Much thanks

Paul


----------------
Learning all the time

 

[WetDane]

Hey Paul,

the most common light signals are:

draw a circle = ok? and ok!
draw a line in front of buddy = Attention! (use hand signals from there on)
Flash your light franticly = Emergency! (OOA or similar catastrophic failure)


Should you have great distance to your buddy because you use light signals - it all depends on what the dive is and what your goal is... as a general rule of thumb - the buddy teams I dive with rarely have more than 6-10 feet of space and if they do, it is only for positioning and such.
I do not recommend separating from yoru buddy - don't let the ligth trick you into feeling that you can do more things - it is an additional tool and a good one, but it is not going to save you if you are 50 feet away and run out of air.

Use common sense.

Big T

 

[Paulb2]

From the discussion so far it seems justified to say that there is a definite lack of trust in the certification system. In diving you will probably only feel comfortable to dive with someone if you speak face to face (to access their attitude) and not based on his or her diving qualification. But can this be an accurate measure of someone’s true lifesaving abilities?

Has anyone have a buddy who appeared fine on the surface but turned out to be 'not so fine' during the dive?

I wonder how many accidents is a result of an unfamiliar buddy.
Is it common to change/have a new dive buddy: -

1. Diving on holiday?
2. Within a dive club?

Thanks

Paul

 

[Starfish]

Hmmm. . . a distrust in the certification problem?

I think that it is more distrust of inexperience.

For example:
Would I ask a surgeon about his qualification before I had elective surgery? Yes.
If he said he was going to use ether instead of modern anesthesia would I look elsewhere? Yes.
If I was presented with 1 first year Intern or a qualified Surgeon to take a piece of glass out of my skin, I would go with the surgeon? Yes.
Could the intern handle the situation? Yes.
Would I survive both experiences? Yes

If I talked to a diver and found out he had 100 dives under his/her weight belt, would I assume he/she is qualified? Yes.
If he/she said they didn't service their gear would I dive with someone else? Yes.
If I had a newly certified diver or a veteran diver to choose to dive with, would I dive with the veteran? Yes.
Could the newly OW be just as good a partner? Yes.
Would I survive both experiences? Chances are Yes.

 

[Paulb2]

Hi

I think we might be arguing the same point. You showed in your examples that you would find out more information about the individual and not just rely on their qualification.

My point being that I personally would look for a buddy’s attitude towards the dive and myself even though they have already passed a certification which states they are competent?
Another similar situation: I know of people who have a driving licence and have been certified by law as ‘fit to drive’ but I am never very comfortable if they are driving me around!

Summary: Qualification alone might not always be a measure of competence

Thanks

Paul

 

[Uncle Pug]

Hey Big T,
I know you are watching this thread so I thought I would take the opportunity to thank you for the dive a couple of days ago.

Amazing how GUE teamwork training works isn't it.
Seemed like we had been long time dive buds even though that was the first time we had ever been diving together and in spite of the less than optimal conditions it was a great dive. Nice to see the octopus brooding eggs at 100 fsw... hope the photos turned out.

Looks like you guys will have a great day for diving today and I'm sorry you won't be able to do Deception Pass tomorrow... oh well... it should be good again in a couple of years