The Buddy system and separation problems
- Thread starter Paulb2
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Not just numbers...
Well, I think you are hitting something on the head there - however - 100 dives does not in my book equal qualified by any means.
I always take people on easy dives for a couple of dives before we go and try something more agressive - and I have had people that I refused to dive with after that first dive -
now - it is not just and isssue of being new - I distinguish between being new and needing to learn and being less new and just not wanting to improve - which is a common symptom...
If a person is new I'm more than willing to take them under my wings and dive with them as much as they desire - but if a person state that my way of diving is for idiots and abandons his/her buddy team during the dive (has happened at 130), I will not dive with this person again until I see some sort of significant sign that they are willing to improve on it.
So you're right - the certification means nothing. Experience is everything. however - there is only one way to get experience and if people have that and understand that diving with a budy is the smart way to go - then proceed to mess it up - I would have to assume that Darwin is going to be saying "I told you so" sooner or later - and I prefer not to be around for that.
Big T
Well, I think you are hitting something on the head there - however - 100 dives does not in my book equal qualified by any means.
I always take people on easy dives for a couple of dives before we go and try something more agressive - and I have had people that I refused to dive with after that first dive -
now - it is not just and isssue of being new - I distinguish between being new and needing to learn and being less new and just not wanting to improve - which is a common symptom...
If a person is new I'm more than willing to take them under my wings and dive with them as much as they desire - but if a person state that my way of diving is for idiots and abandons his/her buddy team during the dive (has happened at 130), I will not dive with this person again until I see some sort of significant sign that they are willing to improve on it.
So you're right - the certification means nothing. Experience is everything. however - there is only one way to get experience and if people have that and understand that diving with a budy is the smart way to go - then proceed to mess it up - I would have to assume that Darwin is going to be saying "I told you so" sooner or later - and I prefer not to be around for that.
Big T
Hey UP,
Thanks right back at ya - that was a great dive - and I can only agree with the training and the seemingly long time buddying. I think we pulled that of without a hitch.
The imgas of you unfortunately did not turn out as well as they could have - but I will drag them into photoshop soon and play with them a bit.
Today we are doing a 90' free ascent at Alki at noon if you care to join us - I will look to see if the bags explode...
Too bad about Deception - I'll get up there - with a little luck - one of these "years" - hmm...
See you at the beach,
Big T
Thanks right back at ya - that was a great dive - and I can only agree with the training and the seemingly long time buddying. I think we pulled that of without a hitch.
The imgas of you unfortunately did not turn out as well as they could have - but I will drag them into photoshop soon and play with them a bit.
Today we are doing a 90' free ascent at Alki at noon if you care to join us - I will look to see if the bags explode...
Too bad about Deception - I'll get up there - with a little luck - one of these "years" - hmm...
See you at the beach,
Big T
Sorry I can't... gotta get things ready for tomorrow...Originally posted by WetDane
Today we are doing a 90' free ascent at Alki at noon if you care to join us - I will look to see if the bags explode...
Stuff the bag tight before you let it go...
Might have to hold onto something...
Send it up from 100 and let's see what happens!!!
hehe -
but uhm - won't it like - uhm - like, overfill and explode if I fill it too much? I don't think the over pressure relief thing is going to work...
If this thing explodes you just owe me half a bag for putting the thought in my head...
Besides - if I will it halfway - it should be comepletely full by 60 adn exploded by 30 - ¿no?
Have fun tomorrow - wht is your departure time? Who all is going - I assume you and Shane?
Big T
but uhm - won't it like - uhm - like, overfill and explode if I fill it too much? I don't think the over pressure relief thing is going to work...
If this thing explodes you just owe me half a bag for putting the thought in my head...
Besides - if I will it halfway - it should be comepletely full by 60 adn exploded by 30 - ¿no?
Have fun tomorrow - wht is your departure time? Who all is going - I assume you and Shane?
Big T
If it explodes Halcyon owes you a whole new bag...
Shoot I was going to try it with mine...
Don't wimp out and 1/2 fill it...
Tomorrow we need to splash at 8:30am.... that means be there at 7:30am....
Three Fundies are going to do the drift....
Shane and I are going to do the bottom....
Gotta go mix!
Is communication the key to the optimum buddy system?
Just a thought, see what you think
Obviously a range of skills is vital to help a buddy in trouble and every certified diver must demonstrate that they have these skills. But if all divers have these emergency skills why do accidents occur?
Maybe accidents occur because an effective buddy system is not just based on a divers ability to perform emergency skills, as these are also essential for solo diving (although perhaps in a modified way). Surely the most vital aspect of the buddy system must be the quality of communication between a pair of divers. The clearer the signals and the greater consistency of communication between a buddy pair, the safer and more effective is their system. But isnt this the aspect of buddy diving that is left more to chance than any other? Does there need to be greater structure or planning to control when, and how divers should communicate?
This raises an interesting question: If communication is the fundamental key are divers who dive with a regular buddy, which they recognize their communication signals very well (their signals, facial expressions, body language, behavioural patterns etc) less likely to experience fatal accidents?
And would three divers in a buddy system make communication more difficult? If so is a three way buddy system more dangerous? (When solo diving and in a two way buddy system it is very clear who to communicate with.)
Thanks
Paul
-------------------------
Learning all the time
Just a thought, see what you think
Obviously a range of skills is vital to help a buddy in trouble and every certified diver must demonstrate that they have these skills. But if all divers have these emergency skills why do accidents occur?
Maybe accidents occur because an effective buddy system is not just based on a divers ability to perform emergency skills, as these are also essential for solo diving (although perhaps in a modified way). Surely the most vital aspect of the buddy system must be the quality of communication between a pair of divers. The clearer the signals and the greater consistency of communication between a buddy pair, the safer and more effective is their system. But isnt this the aspect of buddy diving that is left more to chance than any other? Does there need to be greater structure or planning to control when, and how divers should communicate?
This raises an interesting question: If communication is the fundamental key are divers who dive with a regular buddy, which they recognize their communication signals very well (their signals, facial expressions, body language, behavioural patterns etc) less likely to experience fatal accidents?
And would three divers in a buddy system make communication more difficult? If so is a three way buddy system more dangerous? (When solo diving and in a two way buddy system it is very clear who to communicate with.)
Thanks
Paul
-------------------------
Learning all the time
Hi Paul,
I define an accident as damage to person or property and incidents as occasions that had the potential for damage.
We know what safety precautions and standard procedures we should be doing but often don't bother.
Take a planned inspection and observation of the dive site.
Dive brief by Expedition leader y/n
Flag y/n
first aid kit y/n
oxygen administration kit y/n
Stand by diver available kitted up y/n
Dive Plan y/n
Dive marshal reporting system y/n
Buddy Check y/n
Over here many of us ignore the basic safety precautions and procedures before we get into the water. By ignoring them we increase the risk factor of minor incidents becoming a major accident. When I look at many of the dive accident statistics I see these basics were disregarded. Stupid things like the stand by diver had no available air, or had used up all his no deco time on a previous dive, so was unable to proceed with a search. They are nice guys but I have always regarded this negligence as culpable homicide.
I define an accident as damage to person or property and incidents as occasions that had the potential for damage.
We know what safety precautions and standard procedures we should be doing but often don't bother.
Take a planned inspection and observation of the dive site.
Dive brief by Expedition leader y/n
Flag y/n
first aid kit y/n
oxygen administration kit y/n
Stand by diver available kitted up y/n
Dive Plan y/n
Dive marshal reporting system y/n
Buddy Check y/n
Over here many of us ignore the basic safety precautions and procedures before we get into the water. By ignoring them we increase the risk factor of minor incidents becoming a major accident. When I look at many of the dive accident statistics I see these basics were disregarded. Stupid things like the stand by diver had no available air, or had used up all his no deco time on a previous dive, so was unable to proceed with a search. They are nice guys but I have always regarded this negligence as culpable homicide.
Originally posted by Uncle Pug
If it explodes Halcyon owes you a whole new bag...
Shoot I was going to try it with mine...
Don't wimp out and 1/2 fill it...
FUN -
well, as it turned out - Sean shot the bag - not me - he had his bag and spool all ready to go getting in the water. No biggie - he didn't put a lot of air in the bag, but I think it survived - shot from 90 feet. Ascent went without a hitch other than possibly that the stops were 15 - 30 secs longer than what we wanted.
After that fun we laid some line for a while and my buddy sprung an S drill on me at 60 fsw, with reel and light in one hand and hauling ass... That was interesting, definitely a good place to do it - we dealt with the issue and everything went smoothly.
Have fun tomorrow - I wish I could go - maybe this girlfriend thing is overrated after all?
Big T
Hi
So the foundations of a safe dive are made before the dive takes place. The question is, do these tasks make much difference and if so why do some divers choose to ignore them?
Also, does anyone have their own method for determining if a new buddy is up to standard like asking them curtain questions, watching how they treat other people, getting a feel for their attitude etc?
Thanks
Paul
So the foundations of a safe dive are made before the dive takes place. The question is, do these tasks make much difference and if so why do some divers choose to ignore them?
Also, does anyone have their own method for determining if a new buddy is up to standard like asking them curtain questions, watching how they treat other people, getting a feel for their attitude etc?
Thanks
Paul
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