Testing Tanks for CO - Redux

[DandyDon]

Good comment. But what are their procedures? Do they refuse to take shortcuts that may lead to problems?

Is their equipment well maintained? Do they have sensors to detect problems?

I have not seen the Aldora filling operation. In two trips, I have not been able to get around to seeing it. Even when I do, I am not qualified to assess the degree to which the setup meets reasonable standards to ensure quality.

If it were mine, I would hire an expert in this area to provide an unbiased review of the system and procedures to ensure that it was a clean system. Knowing the Aldora approach to things, I am not concerned about their system.

Or test the tanks yourself in 30 seconds. Too easy, but you can stick to your faith based approach.

 

[Ron Lee]

Or test the tanks yourself in 30 seconds. Too easy, but you can stick to your faith based approach.

It has been working very well for me. Now how has that worked for the newbies/cruise ship divers who died?

Highest bang for the buck is solving those deaths.....not CO monitoring. Solve the CO issue...if there is one...at the source.

 

[DandyDon]

It has been working very well for me. Now how has that worked for the newbies/cruise ship divers who died?

Highest bang for the buck is solving those deaths.....not CO monitoring. Solve the CO issue...if there is one...at the source.

"Past performance is no indicator of future success." But you're intent on not believing it anyway obviously.

As far as how agencies send newbies to sea and how cruise boats treat newbies with C-cards, we can only help the ones who ask us. I don't know what bucks you have invested in changing that, but my work with technology has helped.

 

[Ron Lee]

If you want to dive on faith with regard to your air, fine - most do, and 95-97% of the tanks are cleaned based on tests done by shops that send in air collected under the best conditions. It's when the compressors get hot, filters old, and the shops that never, ever test that could pull that figure down but you just don't know?

Where is the proof that up to 5% of the tanks/samples tested are not OK? What is the problem(s)?

What is the "contamination?" Is it CO? CO at levels that are hazardous to diving? Some other problem that is not detected by a CO tester?

Is it Cozumel wide or just one filling station?

---------- Post Merged at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 01:19 PM ----------

As far as how agencies send newbies to sea and how cruise boats treat newbies with C-cards, we can only help the ones who ask us.

An added DM in the back on cruise ship customer dives can be done without newbies asking. As Blue XTSea notes, requiring a private DM for some divers can help without them asking.

"Past performance is no indicator of future success." But you're intent on not believing it anyway obviously.

Show the facts on the threat.

 

[Mike]

As far as how agencies send newbies to sea and how cruise boats treat newbies with C-cards, we can only help the ones who ask us. I don't know what bucks you have invested in changing that, but my work with technology has helped.

Newbies dive with local dive operators not cruise ship employees, and agencies only certify them as safe to dive, not safe to dive all conditions. So I'd say the issue with newbies isn't agencies and cruise ships, it's the local dive operators who they ultimately end up diving with.

 

[DandyDon]

Where is the proof that up to 5% of the tanks/samples tested are not OK? What is the problem(s)?

Excerpting from http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...9-carbon-monoxide-tank-risks-protections.html which won Thread of the Month that month...

This question was posed to the labs by Bob Rossier, an ex-NASA life support systems engineer, in 1998 and 2004 and reported in the DAN Diver Alert magazine. When Lawrence Factor and TRI Laboratories, two of the largest compressed gas laboratories in the USA, were contacted and asked the frequency of CO contamination in dive air alone (fire service compressed air has a CO failure rate about 0.1 %) both labs reported independently in 2004 that the failure rate was 3 to 5 percent, an incredibly high percentage considering the high toxicity of this contaminant and potential for death in the underwater environment. In 1998 these same lab directors were asked the CO failure rate in diver compressed air and reported it was 5 to 8 percent so things have improved somewhat since that time but not by much.

You can read the thread for much more. Unfortunately, that 3-5% chance of bad air was for the compressors sending samples, collected under best conditions - so we can only guess at the quality during peak load conditions, when filters are old, etc. - and for the fill stations that didn't bother to send sample. Padi never enforced that requirement, then dropped it after a double fatality on Roatan.

What is the "contamination?" Is it CO? CO at levels that are hazardous to diving? Some other problem that is not detected by a CO tester?

Yes yes, CO - at hazardous levels. When you get CO tho, you got to wonder why and what else is also going in the tank?

Is it Cozumel wide or just one filling station?

It can happen anywhere. Hell, if it was just one place, you think I would have skipped that? Scuba compressors are much more demanding that the ones you find in workshops.

An added DM in the back on cruise ship customer dives can be done without newbies asking. As Blue XTSea notes, requiring a private DM for some divers can help without them asking.

Additional DMs would indeed help some, you see me urging new divers & first time Coz divers to hire one, but the ships are already ripping the customers off with double charges on dives and using questionable dive Ops - so how are you going to get them to add DMs? You might go after the local authorities to require such, but the ship companies have them by throat.

As far as how agencies send newbies to sea and how cruise boats treat newbies with C-cards, we can only help the ones who ask us. I don't know what bucks you have invested in changing that, but my work with technology has helped.

So are you finally accepting that CO is a real risk? I hope you have CO monitors in your home at least; they have a 5 year life expectancy you know.

And I am on your side for helping newbies, rusty divers, and pod divers to dive more safely, but how would you want to change this? And how many of your "bucks" have you invested how to this, since you brought up "more bang for the buck."

 

[mediumone]

Newbies dive with local dive operators not cruise ship employees, and agencies only certify them as safe to dive, not safe to dive all conditions. So I'd say the issue with newbies isn't agencies and cruise ships, it's the local dive operators who they ultimately end up diving with.

I think you've left an important party out of this equation. That would be the newbies themselves. Nobody wants to take any personal responsibility. Always someone elses fault.

 

[cruiser]

Or just dive with a dive op with a quality tank fill operation.

Unfortunately, this doesn't ensure clean air.....

 

[Mike]

I think you've left an important party out of this equation. That would be the newbies themselves. Nobody wants to take any personal responsibility. Always someone elses fault.

Sometimes, but the problem is that newbies don't know what they don't know so it's hard to place too much blame on them. They get certified in a process that more than likely stressed the fun rather than the danger of diving, book a tropical destination vacation to do their first dives, end up at a dive operator who stresses more about fun then cautions in regard to diving and then end up on an 80 ft dive with drift, combined with bad buoyancy control and poor air management, leaking masks, they quickly find themselves task loaded and forgetting everything other than the very basics of keeping themselves alive. They are quickly only hopefully playing catch up as the worst outcome.

If they get really lucky they might win the lottery and luck into one of a handful of dive operators on Cozumel who might actually quiz them about their dive experience and restrict their diving, either requiring them to dive first on afternoon shallow dives or insisting they have to pay for the extra expense of a private dive master for their first dives. But more than likely their on their first boat/drift/80 ft dive and on their own, then sign up for a night dive later in the week and the dive op gladly takes these newbie divers with 4 dives under their belt on a night dive.

 

[Christi]

in re: tank fills - 90% of the islands tanks are filled by Meridiano and they do have inline testers and there has been no problem with their air. Don, you act like your favorite shop is some kind of hero for having clean tanks! They rent their tanks from Meridiano FYI!

As far as new divers - I am adamant about requiring the private DM for new divers and/or those who are nervous, have special needs, special restrictions, etc. It's a policy that I won't deviate from and a policy that no one has ever complained about after the fact. Interestingly enough, I just had an e-mail today from someone resisting the private DM requirement because "PADI doesn't require it."

Just an FYI to many of you who are on this same line of thinking. It drives me CRAZY when I hear this! PADI is NOT the only agency out there (there is also NAUI, SSI, SDI, CMASS, etc.) - they are certifying agencies - they do not govern every aspect of our business. They only enforce training standards when certifying under their name and if operating as a PADI Dive Center whether exclusively PADI or not. They (agencies) do not make our individual company policies! If I want to enforce extra safety standards above and beyond what PADi, NAUI, SSI, etc. recommend (not require) - then as a business owner, that is certainly my prerogative and the prerogative of any responsible business owner. God knows that the standards of agencies these days are lacking, not just PADI, but all of them. When it only takes 40 logged dives to begin divemaster training, that speaks volumes - in the wrong way! I also require a minimum of 100 logged dives before I will agree to take on a DM candidate, regardless of the sad fact that PADI says it's ok at 40!