bad instructors are a bigger issues in recreational diving, but there it usually doesn't kill you. For RB the main cause is human error and overconfidence. Most accidents happen to experienced CCR divers. The estimated RB account for 10-15% of all dive fatalities, this is shocking... sure, CCR divers take more risks... on the other hand I can imagine that RB have saved many "extreme" divers lives, you just have so much more time and options to get out of difficult situations.
DIR- GUE Tec1 with CCR in the making?
- Thread starter mariosx
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I know that there are also discussions going on in UTD and ISE, but the issue are the many different types of CCRs. You can't standardize the training. If your TEC-1 instructor can certify you on your RB you might can combine the class with a MOD-2.
Savings on the Helium will only be felt if you have your own bailout/diluent tanks (as you can take them home with you or at least put them away for later use). And during an OC course, you'll still pay for three tanks for the experience dives that you might as well use it.
pretty sure, with CCR you constantly mix your own Nitrox to your set pO2 which can easily half your deco on a long 30-40m dive.
ups... yes, >1% and yes... fatality rate should be calculated over the complete CCR population... watched the RBF4 late night and mixed it up... RB is 10-15% of total dive fatalities let's say there are 30k active RB divers compared to millions of OC diver, so still very worrisome... so is the machine of death label justified?
Yeah, it's hard to say. While deaths on RB may seem overrepresented compared to OC, it's also obviously the case that nowadays, if you're doing a dive where you're likely to die (e.g., something long/deep/complicated), you're most likely going to be on an RB...
Sometimes I feel an oldy in diving, but if there is a T1 ccr coming, it is not that strange if you look at some history and the commercial part.
When I started diving there was only fundies, t1,t2, c1, c2. So if you had the money to do 5 courses, you was ready with everything. CCR and sidemount were 'forbidden'.
I decided to do the cheaper way, so went on with another commercial way to do the tech courses.
In that time a twin12 with 21/35 costed 35 euro, an ali80 with ean50 9 euro, so to do a dive to 50-55m, that was not that expensive. When I did my full trimix course, all gases were included and we ended with a dive to 100m, and I paid for the whole course including gases and tankrental 850 euro. Only had to pay 75 euro for the cert extra.
1 year later, a dive oc to 100m costed with gas around 150, and then you had enough left to do a topup and do another 60m dive.
But in that oc time, I met people diving sidemount and ccr. And some interest in that came. From there I went to ccr and then to sidemount and now I also do sidemount ccr.
If you was an gue diver in that time, you could not do courses with gue for this, so divers started to do courses for sidemount and ccr with other agencies. The same happened with dpv, they became more popular.
Then sidemount and ccr where introduced, but after the backmount courses. Also dpv in ow and cave was introduced by gue. And the documentation diver.
And the introduction of new courses is not strange. The chimney has to smoke, money has to be earned.
But also there was an 'need' or 'ask' from the divers. Not only gue does this, for example there was before around 2010 no ccr cave course. But accidents? and new? cave divers wanted the ccr cave course. So there was a need created for a ccr cave course and the course was added to a curriculum. That there were also divers who dove already ccr in caves and did it safe was forgotten. As with every course, there are people who have done the things that are teached now before and they created more or less a standard how to do things, best practises.
You also have now technical wreck courses, I can do such dives with just a cave cert as that was the holy grail for every penetration and I got that cert before there were technical wreck courses. And my cmas 3* cert is from the time it was a 60m on air with single tank cert. Then cmas went to a PO2 of 1.4, so 57m as max depth on air, and I believe they now dropped it to only 40m on air. So for the 'worth' of some cards, you have to look at the date issued, you cannot degradate cards of course.
The advanced recreational trimix course was first 48m, then went to 51 and now it is 45m, but you can do the plus version to still have the 51m.
Also all divers are human and there is a big group of divers that want to stick with the agency they started with. And if you loose people, it is harder to get them back than to let them stick with your agency. This is just psychological. That all agencies are more or less the same, that doesn't matter. But in part of this, you see also that courses grow together. So people can easely hop over to another agency. And it makes it more easy for divecenters. SSI jumped into the technical diving world a few years ago. Gue started recreational diving courses. cmas changed a little bit more in the directon of the commercial agencies with their 1*, 2*, 3* (dm) to make it shorter with less dives to reach the next star, etc.
Now another thing has changed that makes starting ccr early in your technical diving career better is the price of helium. Just a twin12 with 21/35 costs here between 100 and 150 euro. An ali80 with ean50 is between 15 and 22 euro. This means even an dive to 50m is really expensive nowadays, if you want to dive trimix of course.
So you see now deep air is coming back. 60-65m is getting more and more normal again.
And people who want to avoid that narcoses start thinking about a ccr. They don't want to do that expensive oc diving anymore as they know they will end with buying a ccr.
Other agencies offer ccr to beginners in diving, so it will not be a strange step to introduce another new course. Otherwise you will loose students, customers, buyers, money. So easy it is.
So it is not directly strange if this will happen in future. But I see a very big decrease in teaching oc trimix courses due to helium prices. I have got some questions about teaching deep air which I never had before 2020.
And about ccr deaths, the units are most times used for more complex dives than most oc dives do. So if you look at the real risks you must also look at what kind of dives divers died. There is more risk in a 100m dive than in a 10m dive, even if both dives are done with the same equipment.
When I started diving there was only fundies, t1,t2, c1, c2. So if you had the money to do 5 courses, you was ready with everything. CCR and sidemount were 'forbidden'.
I decided to do the cheaper way, so went on with another commercial way to do the tech courses.
In that time a twin12 with 21/35 costed 35 euro, an ali80 with ean50 9 euro, so to do a dive to 50-55m, that was not that expensive. When I did my full trimix course, all gases were included and we ended with a dive to 100m, and I paid for the whole course including gases and tankrental 850 euro. Only had to pay 75 euro for the cert extra.
1 year later, a dive oc to 100m costed with gas around 150, and then you had enough left to do a topup and do another 60m dive.
But in that oc time, I met people diving sidemount and ccr. And some interest in that came. From there I went to ccr and then to sidemount and now I also do sidemount ccr.
If you was an gue diver in that time, you could not do courses with gue for this, so divers started to do courses for sidemount and ccr with other agencies. The same happened with dpv, they became more popular.
Then sidemount and ccr where introduced, but after the backmount courses. Also dpv in ow and cave was introduced by gue. And the documentation diver.
And the introduction of new courses is not strange. The chimney has to smoke, money has to be earned.
But also there was an 'need' or 'ask' from the divers. Not only gue does this, for example there was before around 2010 no ccr cave course. But accidents? and new? cave divers wanted the ccr cave course. So there was a need created for a ccr cave course and the course was added to a curriculum. That there were also divers who dove already ccr in caves and did it safe was forgotten. As with every course, there are people who have done the things that are teached now before and they created more or less a standard how to do things, best practises.
You also have now technical wreck courses, I can do such dives with just a cave cert as that was the holy grail for every penetration and I got that cert before there were technical wreck courses. And my cmas 3* cert is from the time it was a 60m on air with single tank cert. Then cmas went to a PO2 of 1.4, so 57m as max depth on air, and I believe they now dropped it to only 40m on air. So for the 'worth' of some cards, you have to look at the date issued, you cannot degradate cards of course.
The advanced recreational trimix course was first 48m, then went to 51 and now it is 45m, but you can do the plus version to still have the 51m.
Also all divers are human and there is a big group of divers that want to stick with the agency they started with. And if you loose people, it is harder to get them back than to let them stick with your agency. This is just psychological. That all agencies are more or less the same, that doesn't matter. But in part of this, you see also that courses grow together. So people can easely hop over to another agency. And it makes it more easy for divecenters. SSI jumped into the technical diving world a few years ago. Gue started recreational diving courses. cmas changed a little bit more in the directon of the commercial agencies with their 1*, 2*, 3* (dm) to make it shorter with less dives to reach the next star, etc.
Now another thing has changed that makes starting ccr early in your technical diving career better is the price of helium. Just a twin12 with 21/35 costs here between 100 and 150 euro. An ali80 with ean50 is between 15 and 22 euro. This means even an dive to 50m is really expensive nowadays, if you want to dive trimix of course.
So you see now deep air is coming back. 60-65m is getting more and more normal again.
And people who want to avoid that narcoses start thinking about a ccr. They don't want to do that expensive oc diving anymore as they know they will end with buying a ccr.
Other agencies offer ccr to beginners in diving, so it will not be a strange step to introduce another new course. Otherwise you will loose students, customers, buyers, money. So easy it is.
So it is not directly strange if this will happen in future. But I see a very big decrease in teaching oc trimix courses due to helium prices. I have got some questions about teaching deep air which I never had before 2020.
And about ccr deaths, the units are most times used for more complex dives than most oc dives do. So if you look at the real risks you must also look at what kind of dives divers died. There is more risk in a 100m dive than in a 10m dive, even if both dives are done with the same equipment.
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