[TDI] What training should I do for wrecks?

[Fibonacci]

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone... I certainly silted up my fair share of wrecks early on
This new-fangled SCUBA stuff will never catch on!

 

[happy-diver]

Never, best we stick with these rebreather things

 

[happy-diver]

Oh yeah, from Akimbo!

Wreck Penetration

and I quote

"IMHO, the great majority of wreck diving classes compound the problem. They place great emphasize on avoiding black-out conditions and address managing it with lip service. All the talk about avoidance, spare lights, and depending on your buddy isn't very useful when you are suddenly alone and in the dark. That dread and total lack of habituation is a recipe for disaster.

How are you going to monitor your air supply if you can't see? How are you going to find your buddy -- who might be in full panic mode? How are you going to get out if you can't think straight? Becoming comfortable in these conditions far in advance of being faced with them can turn a deadly situation into an inconvenience."


This is brilliant Mr Akimbo Sir, I feel vindicatedly elevated

I have never been one for courses all my course are mine
I design them myself, been silting places out for this very reason for decades

I deliberately silted out a room diving by myself last week and terrified myself again, but breathing remained stable

Magnificent



There must be an Akimbo room somewhere where people can go to read Akimbo stuff and learn

 

[lermontov]

Hi,

I'm not sure as to what certification I should do next, I really enjoy wrecks and want to push it to the next level. So far I have a Padi DM + TDI Sidemount + Nitrox + Advanced Nitrox + Deco Procedures and around 400 dives.

I dive mostly as I travel, so very often with new dive centers and therefore I'm concerned about what my certifications allow me to do. I know there's also a big experience factor but I'll be the judge of this as I go.

I have many questions, I'd love to hear people's thought on them:

- Is there any point doing my extended range or should I go straight to Trimix + Advanced Trimix ?
With Trimix I can theoretically go to 60m, but would a TDI shop let me do 55m without helium or will they require my extended range?

- Any point in going full cave or advanced wreck is sufficient? Thinking about complex wreck penetrations at 40m+ depth. I know full cave will always provide good experience, but again, just worried about what dive centers will require me to have.

- I want to dive with a rebreather at some point, but still want to be able to do everything with OC as well (I travel a lot so rebreather isn't always an option). Do I have to do all the courses twice (OC and CC)? I'm thinking of Advanced Wreck and all the cave courses.

- Does it make any difference if I do these courses sidemount or not? Actually for this question I'm wondering about any restrictions I might get with dive centers around the world, but also experience. I feel like if I do everything in sidemount it will be easy to switch to twin tank, while the opposite might be more challenging, no?

Right now I was planning to do advanced wreck + trimix + advanced trimix this summer but perhaps there's a better order?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Any course that stretches you and expands you're reportoire of skills is worthwhile. Mental stimulation is important especially for someone like yourself that has done 200+ dives ive done courses just for that reason.
If your focus is wreck diving then do an advanced wreck course and get stuck in with lots of dives gaining experience and expanding your comfort zone. Get a GOOD reel and practice running lines it takes bit of mileage to be able to spot a good tie off quickly and be able to execute it quickly and efficiently.
Extended range is useful course in order to take gas and deco management too the next level even if you dont do that many deeper dives at present, you can build up as you gain more confidence -a 45m+ wreck dive is not a trifling dive.
In all honesty id not worry about advanced trimix (yet) in the context of wreck penetration - if your using hypoxic gas' on a wreck penetration your into some serious territory..maybe later -have fun

 

[ginti]

Oh yeah, from Akimbo!

Wreck Penetration

and I quote

"IMHO, the great majority of wreck diving classes compound the problem. They place great emphasize on avoiding black-out conditions and address managing it with lip service. All the talk about avoidance, spare lights, and depending on your buddy isn't very useful when you are suddenly alone and in the dark. That dread and total lack of habituation is a recipe for disaster.

How are you going to monitor your air supply if you can't see? How are you going to find your buddy -- who might be in full panic mode? How are you going to get out if you can't think straight? Becoming comfortable in these conditions far in advance of being faced with them can turn a deadly situation into an inconvenience."


This is brilliant Mr Akimbo Sir, I feel vindicatedly elevated

I have never been one for courses all my course are mine
I design them myself, been silting places out for this very reason for decades

I deliberately silted out a room diving by myself last week and terrified myself again, but breathing remained stable

Magnificent



There must be an Akimbo room somewhere where people can go to read Akimbo stuff and learn

Fantastic posts from Akimbo.

I believe an overhead course must have a significant focus on both aspects:
- good habits, buoyancy control, trim, and propulsion, to avoid producing bad situations
- how to survive bad scenarios

In my cave course, I exited the cave with blinds on my mask (together with my buddies) twice, and the second time was with air sharing. Plus, tons of no-visibility drills in shallow open water, finding the lost line with blinds, lots of history and focus on psychology and mental resilience. I think this is the standard for all intro-to-cave courses nowadays. @Capt Jim Wyatt, could you confirm?

The only problem is that, although a good course can focus a lot on these details, one needs experience to develop mental resilience. Actual scenarios are pretty different from drills.

Because of the experience required to develop natural resilience, I believe that the best approach is to have a lot of experience in SHALLOW overhead environments before going deep. Indeed, without the right attitude, a problem at 55m could lead to quick gas consumption and, potentially, to a wrong end. On the other hand, with the right experience, [A] one knows better his limits and can better plan a dive, and uncomfortable situations does not necessarily lead to inappropriate reactions (such as fast gas consumption).

My 2cents: first, experience in shallow overhead experience; then, deep caves/wrecks.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

In my cave course, I exited the cave with blinds on my mask (together with my buddies twice), and the second time was with air sharing. Plus, tons of no-visibility drills in shallow open water, finding the lost line with blinds, lots of history and focus on psychology and mental resilience. I think this is the standard for all intro-to-cave courses nowadays. @Capt Jim Wyatt, could you confirm?

Yes, or some variation of that. I have long stated that cave diving is 60% mental and 40% physical. Accident analysis is another very important phase of the cave class.

Simulated zero visibility drills with gas sharing, lost lines etc is indeed an integral part of the training both psychologically and technique wise.

 

[ginti]

Accident analysis is another very important phase of the cave class.

Thanks for the reply.

To be clear, when I said "history" I was thinking about:
- history of the sport;
- the five rules of Sheck Exely;
- some accident analysis.

I guess something similar should be done for wrecks, but I have zero experience to be sure

 

[happy-diver]

mental resilience

Mental resilience is good, great post ginti

- good habits, buoyancy control, trim, and propulsion, to avoid producing bad situations

I thought this what people do when people do diving, stock standard normal diving

 

[ginti]

Mental resilience is good, great post ginti

I had a good instructor

I thought this what people do when people do diving, stock standard normal diving

Not sure if I understand you correctly. Do you mean that people need "good habits, buoyancy control, trim, and propulsion" during any dive?

If yes, I agree, but overhead environments and tech dives require even more. Here's what I think; let's start with the three scenarios that I can see:
- In recreational diving, one needs the buoyancy control, trim, and propulsion necessary to [A] avoid damaging the environment, avoid excessive gas consumption, and [C] enjoy the dive.
- At significant depth, the physiology changes a lot, there is more gas density and a lot of other problems (pulmonary efficiency, etc.), so the previous point becomes: "be highly efficient in terms of gas consumption."
- In overhead environments, there are additional risks, so that previous point [A] becomes: "avoid producing bad situations" (bad situation = silt out, going too far from the line when turning on the backup light, etc.).

[NOTE: In wrecks, at depth, one has both physiological changes and environmental hazards.]

Reaching the level needed in tech and overhead diving requires a lot of training and effort. I just do not believe it is reasonable to ask a diver who wants to do just a couple of dives per year to put this effort in order to refine his own skills.

 

[Wibble]

Extended Range / Normoxic Trimix…

Fundamentally this course teaches you how to use two decompression cylinders. You’ll the. Find that you’ll be using two cylinders on pretty much every dive due to the flexibility it provides, especially coping with one deco cylinder failure.

It will be massively helpful for your CCR ambitions. Get your basic skills sorted on open circuit first, the. CCR is a doddle.