Tdi not dir

[TSandM]

To the OP: If you wanted a DIR class, you should have found a DIR instructor. GUE has a whole list; they aren't hard to get hold of.

Once you selected an instructor, you should pay patient and diligent attention to that person. What they say may not be DIR, but most likely, they have some reason why they do what they do. It NEVER hurts to know more. You may discard their approach later, because you have become convinced that there is a better way to do things, but it cannot hurt to find out WHY they feel the way they do things is the optimal way for them.

Selecting an instructor and then discarding what they have to say because it doesn't agree with your preconceptions, or what you have learned on the internet, is a waste of your money and your instructor's time.

 

[danvolker]

The original idea on getting DIR out, had nothing to do with GUE---GUE did not exist in the early days...Go back to around 1988 ( I am not sure exactly, but this is around the time). No one used helium then--it was a devil gas. George was doing deep adventure dives, and ran into me on a spearfishing trip on the hydro. He liked my diving skiils and attitude, and got me diving with him, Bill Mee, Robert Carmichael, and several other of his friends. At this time, George was a strong diver, but if you compared him to the oldtimers doing deep spearfishing dives, the basic skill sets were not far off. After a couple of months of deep dives, spearfishing on deep wrecks, deep reefs, etc, George disappeared. We heard he was diving with some cave guys in North Florida...Parker Turner, and Sheck Exily in particular. We did not see him for many months, and then suddenly he showed up on a 290 foot wreck dive. His ability to move throughout tiny passages, and and hang like he was attached to something was shocking to us. Mind blowing. None of the oldtimers had ever seen any thing like what George was doing. And this was just the beginning. He could suddenly swim shocking faster than he had before, leaving everyone else far behind except me ( competitive cyclist at the time)...This would not occur on deep dives, but on lobster dives closer to 90 feet deep. He insisted on all of us being in "REAL" buddy teams ( which had been true before his cave time, but now was intense.)We saw his gear was slicing through the water, anihilating the performance of our gear. Once in a while he would bring scooters, and several of us, donning Georges New gear configuration, had the thrill of covering huge distance on his scooters, as well as being able to effortlessly swim much faster than before( ie., cover more distance with less air consumption).


A few years or so later, George was running the WKPP, and enforced the streamlined configuration, buddy skills, and all the things that had worked to keep the WKPP from losing lives on enormous penetrations into Wakulla. Use of helium was a big one, for anything over 100 feet.

Soon, after 1995 the exploits and world records were spreading over the internet, notably on the Tech list and cavers list, hosted by aquanaut. Deaths to to behaviors George new to be dangerous, were blowing his mind, so he asked me to help push this out on the 2 lists, as well as rec.scuba ( and back in the early days of the mid to late 90's, rec.scuba was a huge influence in diving all over the world. George coined DIR..Doing it Right, knowing that an easy way to be heard in a large media, is to have a radical idea that begs to be discussed..DIR was such an idea, and George used his WWF wrestling personna to recieve far more publicity for free, than any of the fledgling tech agencies could even pay for.

One of my jobs, was to introduce DIR ideas to recreational divers..Help them to learn for themselves. We put up many articles on the interenet, and George did DIR demos all over the world. This was NOT for personal gain--it was George on a mission not to lose more divers to stupid dive behaviors or gear configurations. The fact that each of us were called on many times to perform deep water body recoveries on people who had been sold a bill of goods, by and unscrupulous instructor, would constantly recharge our resolve.

In these early years of DIR, we liked people learning DIR through the internet, and would dive with people who had learned, and wanted to dive with us to see George's DIR in person. This happened alot, again George did this because he liked mentoring far more than any training agency out there, and he wanted as much of DIR adopted as possible....but..there was no coolaid....anyone could ask him why, he would show them, and they would either adopt it or not. The vast majority adopted it, but the real success was showing divers why they could not be high drag, why they needed buddy skills and real buddies, why if your buddy runs out of air, its as much your fault as it is his. And there was much more, but this gives you the point.

DIR was originally for SMART, coordinated divers--adventure types, not posers..the kind of person who taught themself how to white water kayak, taught themself how to hangglide...taught themself real adventure skills there whole life, and always did well with it. This is "who" George wanted as a buddy for his team members , or for anyone in the world, once they learned DIR.

DIR is not a coolaid, and there is no brainwashing in DIR itself---DIR is an explanation of how and why--you take what you take.

When Jarrod Jablonski got tired of people begging for a way to learn DIR from an instructor, or a way to learn without joining the WKPP and mentoring with them, he ultimately formed GUE. Jarrod created a brilliant training curriculum, and taught true DIR..but now as an agency, you had to adopt everything , it was no longer teach yourself DIR.

There is still massive information on DIR you can find on the Internet, along with some of the best arguements that clearly define the issues...Aquanaut.com is a great place, where the tech list and cavers is still archived--at least for a short time longer. This is fiery, it gets tempers up, but it formed the basis of DIR as it first got to the internet.
And there are many new DIR websites, with info on virtually any element of diving.
Even my old site, www.sfdj.com , has lots of DIR stuff on it that should in no way sound like cool-aid

DanV

 

[dave4868]

Over the years I had several flight instructors and I learned something from all of them - even the poor ones. One was a crop duster some were miltary and some were either part 91 or part 141 commercial pilots and or ATP's. There is nothing wrong with getting a wide range of experience. I also had the priviledge of flying a wide range of aircraft and again learned something from each one. In the end, I learned a lot more than the average pilot who went through a factory flight school in 1 or 2 aircraft types.

I think the same thing applies to technical diving, so single instructor or agency has a lock on everything worth knowing. In regard to DIR, its optimized for the cave environment and if you look around it won't take you long to find a DIR diver who deviates from the herd to adapt to and optimize his or her configuration for the specific conditions. I am pretty sure Jersey reels are not standard DIR fare, but they are nice to have if you find yourself looking at where the hook used to be in a stiff current with lots of deco in the north atlantic. It's not exactly a negative, its confirmation that a significant number of DIR divers are more than able to think for themselves.

With regard to a second SPG, I don't personally see the need with manifolded doubles, but it is pretty simple to run a second spg over the right shoulder on a fairly short hose and secure it to the right shoulder strap as I do on the rare occasions I find myself with independent doubels.

On the other hand, the failure point argument against a second SPG is over blown. In 23 years of diving and over 1500 dives I have never had a significant leak due to an SPG. I have had one small stream of very tiny bubbles type of leak in a HP hose going bad, I have had one equally small leak due to a bad o-ring in a HP spool and I have never had a high pressure o-ring leak - it's captured and if it does not leak when it is installed it won't leak if you don't mess with it. Besides the HP o-ring does not really count as you still have the same o-ring and the same potential failure point with the plug in the reg.

Both the other failures were directly related to poor maintenence, ie: my fault. The hose was suspect and the HP spool was way (years) over due for replacement.

In short, if your instructor sees value in a second spg, consider it and pick his or her brains on the reasons why. But don't get hung up on the "failure point" issue as it is a miniscule risk that if it ever occurs is most likely a minor leak and at worst results in a totally separated hose (think evil bad guys cutting hoses mayube?) that you address by shutting down the post - it ain't gonna kill you.

Once you finish the course make your own decisions and configure accordingly.

Refreshingly reasonable!

I respect divers who make reasonable assessments of risk (such as failure points) and then adapt without getting locked into the regimentation of a single "right" way.

Clearly, regimentation has its place in certain demanding overhead environments, but for some people it's simply become a mark of distinction or elitism that leads to closed-mindedness.

It's mostly non-overhead diving for me, but I love seeing the solutions my buddies and I come up with, especially on-the-fly fixes during a dive! I'm sure our methods wouldn't pass muster, but that's okay....

Dave C

 

[Thalassamania]

I want to thank Dan for a clear and concise (and first hand) explication of what went on from his vantage point. Everything that he says is true, the only thing that is lacking is a moment spent on GI's incredible ability to paint himself into a corner while convincing himself that because of minor variation and recombination, stirred with a catchy acronym, that he had discovered something brand new.

There where lots of folks who had hit on many of the same solutions, though in different variations and combinations decades earlier (Jim Stewart, Lloyd Austin, Lee Somers, Walt Hendricks Sr. to name a few) and many who were doing a good job of extending the envelope contemporaneously (Rich Pyle, Billy Deans, Parker Turner, Sheck Exley, Jeff Bozanic, Phil Nuytton, Graham Hawkes). Unlike the folks just mentioned I found George to be closed minded and doctrinaire. I was very much put off by his insistence that it was his way and his way only.

In the late 1980s some marine geologists I was working with asked me to look into easily transportable technologies and methodologies that would permit working far below our normal limit of 190 feet and minimal additional risk. This lead to a two year systematic study of what was being done by many groups and individuals to access the depth range between 400 and 500 feet (and even down to 1,000 and 3,000 feet).

George was the only one that was uncooperative. In fact, he was downright abusive. We had two phone conversations and exchanged a series of e-mails, and I'd had enough. Now I'd take the blame for this, save for the fact that none of the others I approached behaved that way.

In the final analysis it was all of our loss, my view is that George's demeaning attitude prevented a critical synthesis between what he had brought together and what these other folks had done and were doing, that I think could have spread throughout the diving world and, in the end, established a new paradigm of diving training, practice and safety, rather than just being a niche agency with far less influence than it should have.

 

[danvolker]

In the final analysis it was all of our loss, my view is that George's demeaning attitude prevented a critical synthesis between what he had brought together and what these other folks had done and were doing, that I think could have spread throughout the diving world and, in the end, established a new paradigm of diving training, practice and safety, rather than just being a niche agency with far less influence than it should have.

Thanks for your post Thal,
With all the larger than life characters you have dove with in the past--the big names you mentioned, and many others I am sure you dove with....I am sure you have seen a number of these people who don't play well with other big name divers--each thinks they are right, and will not give in. George was/is a character beyond belief, to his "immediate friends". And then there was the WWF stuff, as well as the sick feeling in his stomach--that never went away--that Scheck was killed by the diving behaviors and what George considered foolish planning and preparation..Sheck had been a great friend of George, and I think his religious fervor had everything to do with what he blamed for Scheck's death.

I can certainly imagine the scenario you did not enjoy with him--how his way or nothing was it...this was part the reason above, and part WKPP credo-that there is a WKPP way for a huge dive, and no deviation is allowed. It gave them an awesome safety record for big dives, but made him impossible to work with in your scenario.


Beyond all the vitriol George created..and yes, you can ignore the vitriol, any DIR interested diver can learn a path that eveloves "some DIR" into their diving, via the tech list on aquanaut. searching by author for Trey or George will pull up massive numbers of discussions that would answer VIRTUALLY EVERY DIR question that has ever been asked on this board. It would not be a coolaid approach, it would be a "take what makes sense to you approach". But George had so many great and specific reasons for each and every thing DIR, that most of the time, newcomers liked everything....unless of course, he pissed them off too much

One of our greatest feats was getting our arch nemesis on rec.scuba... MHK , to "try" a DIR dive with our group in South Florida. MHK was a posterboy Stroke, and a really smart guy. We had been having epic battles on rec.scuba for months, and finally MHK said, FINE, I will come dive with you. There was some intense discussion, George had great answers.. I helped "moderate"....and within a couple of days, MHK swithed to DIR. Now he is a GUE instructor . But it illustrates, if you go to the horses mouth, there are perfect answers----it is only cool-aid when you ask someone who does not know the origin of each and every issue. George and Jarrod do, I am sure there are many more GUE people who do, but there are bound to be people who just accepted without asking...Just remember, in the original DIR demos we did, it was all about a newcomer asking ANYTHING, and getting a specific reason. And again, our job was to just make them as close to DIR as we could, and this made George forget some of his demons I think.

And that's why the DIR movement got started.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thanks for your post Thal,
With all the larger than life characters you have dove with in the past--the big names you mentioned, and many others I am sure you dove with....I am sure you have seen a number of these people who don't play well with other big name divers--each thinks they are right, and will not give in. George was/is a character beyond belief, to his "immediate friends". And then there was the WWF stuff, as well as the sick feeling in his stomach--that never went away--that Scheck was killed by the diving behaviors and what George considered foolish planning and preparation..Sheck had been a great friend of George, and I think his religious fervor had everything to do with what he blamed for Scheck's death.

I do appreciate your reply ... both the content and the positive tone. I'd like to point out that all the "name" divers I mentioned (and more) got along and worked together, over the course of many years with none of the "WWF stuff" as you call it. It may be a regional thing but we never thought of them as anything special (not diving gods, not larger life, not "name" divers, they were are Diving Safety Officers, people with whom we all worked as part of our normal duties), and they didn't think of themselves as anything special either. Whilst y'all may have been amazed at what GI was able to do in the water, I'd like to suggest (without appearing too wrapped up in what you might incorrectly perceive to be the ego of it all) that most all of the people I mention come from a community with a long, long tradition of expecting the kind of water skills you describe (with the exception of the deepness) of all its members ... even the most newly minted diver. Effortless propulsion, perfect trim, pinpoint buoyancy control, impeccable buddy manners, a "simple is best" skill-based approach to equipment ... I learned all that from Lloyd Austin back in 1972 and I must admit that part of my problem with George may have been my amusement at his clearly expressed opinion that had discovered these things. Kind of like Columbus "discovering" America. He's a good solid diver, but within the community that I hail from, that's about where he rates, except on physical condition (and I know some pudgy professors who can out swim, and out freedive, you, me and George).

There really were (maybe still are to a degee) two very different diving worlds on the West Coast and in Florida. In my experience most of the Floridians who were competent divers, only saw themselves and PADI and held the rest of the diving world in the same contempt that they held PADI. They made the highly incorrect assumption that all of the rest of the diving world was organized uniformly around what they liked to call, "PADI Poodle Jacket diving." That simply was not (and is not) the case.

I can certainly imagine the scenario you did not enjoy with him--how his way or nothing was it...this was part the reason above, and part WKPP credo-that there is a WKPP way for a huge dive, and no deviation is allowed. It gave them an awesome safety record for big dives, but made him impossible to work with in your scenario.

I have a great deal of respect for the accomplishments of the WKPP (though I think it would have been interesting to try the idea that Phil Nuytton and I have of using a pair of graphite autonomous swimable Newt Suits with detachable thrusters and battery packs in combination with small ROVs). Frankly, had I been faced with the responsibility for carryout out the WKPP's mission, I'd have done so with the same rigidity and attention to detail, though I would have acknowledged that there are often many good approaches to a problem, that there often is not one best solution, but that standardization adds to safety and and sometimes arbitrary decisions need to be made. I can't say that I took a very flexable approach with our diving procedures when we were working up against the arctic ice four days steam to helo evacuation range.

Beyond all the vitriol George created..and yes, you can ignore the vitriol, any DIR interested diver can learn a path that eveloves "some DIR" into their diving, via the tech list on aquanaut. searching by author for Trey or George will pull up massive numbers of discussions that would answer VIRTUALLY EVERY DIR question that has ever been asked on this board. It would not be a coolaid approach, it would be a "take what makes sense to you approach". But George had so many great and specific reasons for each and every thing DIR, that most of the time, newcomers liked everything....unless of course, he pissed them off too much

I did not bother with things like the tech list on aquanaut, I was far too busy at the time with operations (you can guess that I've slowed down a bit in recent years ). I just wrote GI and the WKPP off and went on my way. I really did not give them much of another though till I joined here and was left scratching my head by what I thought were rather amateurish and sophomoric discussions over what is and is not "DIR." The final straw for me was being informed that gluing a nose block in a mask to effect easier ear equalization (rather standard practice, when needed, in the commercial, military and scientific worlds) was not DIR, because it was an "equipment solution to a skill problem."

One of our greatest feats was getting our arch nemesis on rec.scuba... MHK , to "try" a DIR dive with our group in South Florida. MHK was a posterboy Stroke, and a really smart guy. We had been having epic battles on rec.scuba for months, and finally MHK said, FINE, I will come dive with you. There was some intense discussion, George had great answers.. I helped "moderate"....and within a couple of days, MHK swithed to DIR. Now he is a GUE instructor . But it illustrates, if you go to the horses mouth, there are perfect answers----it is only cool-aid when you ask someone who does not know the origin of each and every issue. George and Jarrod do, I am sure there are many more GUE people who do, but there are bound to be people who just accepted without asking...Just remember, in the original DIR demos we did, it was all about a newcomer asking ANYTHING, and getting a specific reason. And again, our job was to just make them as close to DIR as we could, and this made George forget some of his demons I think.

And that's why the DIR movement got started.

I went to the horses' mouth, and all I found, unfortunately, was the horse's other end. Perhaps, in part, it was my lack of familiarity with the Florida situation. Additionally, what George was describing as the final outcome differed from what we were already doing only in detail and the level of adaptability. Looking back I'm quite sorry that I did not persevere through as several suggested I should, but at the time I was looking for things to take and use, and not seeing the big picture of the right combination being larger than the sum of the parts.

 

[Rick Inman]

Thalassamania & Danvolker,

Thanks for the excellent posts. A little history from you guys helps with perspective.

 

[TSandM]

One of our greatest feats was getting our arch nemesis on rec.scuba... MHK , to "try" a DIR dive with our group in South Florida. MHK was a posterboy Stroke, and a really smart guy. We had been having epic battles on rec.scuba for months, and finally MHK said, FINE, I will come dive with you. There was some intense discussion, George had great answers.. I helped "moderate"....and within a couple of days, MHK swithed to DIR. Now he is a GUE instructor .

I have heard this story from Mr. Kane. He said, "I realized these guys knew things about diving that I had no idea of." Given his accomplishments prior to this meeting, I found that a very compelling statement.

 

[RiverRat]

Once you selected an instructor, you should pay patient and diligent attention to that person. What they say may not be DIR, but most likely, they have some reason why they do what they do. It NEVER hurts to know more. You may discard their approach later, because you have become convinced that there is a better way to do things, but it cannot hurt to find out WHY they feel the way they do things is the optimal way for them.
Selecting an instructor and then discarding what they have to say because it doesn't agree with your preconceptions, or what you have learned on the internet, is a waste of your money and your instructor's time.

As someone that just finished TDI Adv. Nitrox Deco I have to agree. I struggled a bit deciding on what path I wanted to take and went with TDI for now. I am familiar with DIR concepts, drills, skills etc. but decided not to go the GUE-F route at the moment.
I approached this course with an open mind and have progressed into technical diving. I've learned a LOT of stuff over the last few months and got more than my $'s worth out of the classes and dives. That being said, I also saw a lot of things that I DON'T LIKE about other divers gear choices (stuffed hoses for example ) gas choices (80/20) among other things. I think at this level, it really won't hurt anyone to take any of these courses from a decent instructor. If you start with a closed mind it doesn't matter who you take a class from, TDI, GUE, PADI whatever. I've actually discussed many GUE/DIR concepts such as standard gases with the TDI Instructor and he embraced some of the stuff although for other reasons he's not DIR. And like TS&M says you can always discard some of these approaches later on down the road or switch over to another path. It won't hurt at all.