DIR- Generic Tdi Normoxic trimix or CCR?

[PfcAJ]

The diving community's a much calmer place without the likes of GI3's haughty disdain. Zealotry is never a good method of persuasion.

I don’t think anyone is here to persuade you.

What is has been laid out. You don’t like it. Okay? So move along?

 

[elgoog]

How much are you paying per liter/cubic foot of helium today?

Now this is just a prediction, but things in 2025 do not look good. It is interesting that per Helium (HNT) Price Prediction 2022, 2023-2025 the prices in 2022 are a bit down.

My shop banks 18/45 and I just get that topped up after the dives. After a normal T1 dive, my top ups on doubles are around $110 and the 50% fill in AL80 is a flat $18. I think helium is $2/cu.ft if you want a custom mix.

I usually dive twice a month (every other Saturday) with a 3rd Saturday once in a while. I love the diving in the EAN32 range in my area and don't see any reason I'd stop doing that once I graduate T1. My gas cost for a rec dive is ~$30 (doubles and a stage as I like to do one long dive on my DPV) and for tech dive is ~$130. Considering I'm already spending a bunch of money when I go diving (250mi round trip drive $50-75, boat charter $100-150 or park fee $25, lunch with buddies $20, etc), the additional $100, once or twice a month, is an acceptable increase for me.
If my trimix fill doubles in 2025, in line with the prediction, I could do fewer trimix dives if I didn't want to spend more money? It's not like I'm losing any tech skills when I do the type of rec dives I do. This is assuming my current financial situation remains the same or gets worse (hopefully neither of those two happen and it goes the other way )

I dunno, I've spent multi thousands of $$ on training and equipment in the last few years and already spend hundreds of dollars every month pursuing this hobby (even without factoring in helium). An additional hundred or two just doesn't move any needles for me.

 

[elgoog]

Zealotry is never a good method of persuasion.

The zealotry that has you using words like "not viable for open circuit" in the context of normoxic trimix and "bigot" for DIR? I agree.

 

[Marie13]

My shop banks 18/45 and I just get that topped up after the dives. After a normal T1 dive, my top ups on doubles are around $110 and the 50% fill in AL80 is a flat $18. I think helium is $2/cu.ft if you want a custom mix.

I usually dive twice a month (every other Saturday) with a 3rd Saturday once in a while. I love the diving in the EAN32 range in my area and don't see any reason I'd stop doing that once I graduate T1. My gas cost for a rec dive is ~$30 (doubles and a stage as I like to do one long dive on my DPV) and for tech dive is ~$130. Considering I'm already spending a bunch of money when I go diving (250mi round trip drive $50-75, boat charter $100-150 or park fee $25, lunch with buddies $20, etc), the additional $100, once or twice a month, is an acceptable increase for me.
If my trimix fill doubles in 2025, in line with the prediction, I could do fewer trimix dives if I didn't want to spend more money? It's not like I'm losing any tech skills when I do the type of rec dives I do. This is assuming my current financial situation remains the same or gets worse (hopefully neither of those two happen and it goes the other way )

I dunno, I've spent multi thousands of $$ on training and equipment in the last few years and already spend hundreds of dollars every month pursuing this hobby (even without factoring in helium). An additional hundred or two just doesn't move any needles for me.

What if your local helium supplier said they were no longer going to fill OC cylinders and would only fill for CCR? That’s the reality with some shops here in the US. In other places, there isn’t any helium to be had.

 

[Wibble]

$100 vs $10 and I'm the zealot?

Pragmatism has to make an appearance at some point. Or when you simply won't be able to get an open circuit fill -- unless it's for bailout use.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

What if your local helium supplier said they were no longer going to fill OC cylinders and would only fill for CCR? That’s the reality in with some shops here in the US. In other places, there isn’t any helium to be had.

That will be the policy of my dive center. Right now, helium in Greece is 4.5 Euro cents per liter and is very hard to come by. While my situation (leading archaeological expeditions) is not common, having variable depth wreck sites makes OC completely impractical for anyone.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I dunno, I've spent multi thousands of $$ on training and equipment in the last few years and already spend hundreds of dollars every month pursuing this hobby (even without factoring in helium). An additional hundred or two just doesn't move any needles for me.

I don't think an increase of a few hundred is really the issue here. I think the issue is more of decreasing availability and 5x or more increases in cost over time. If you wind up with $1000 more per month for helium in a month affect your decisions? It will affect the decisions of many.

 

[elgoog]

What if your local helium supplier said they were no longer going to fill OC cylinders and would only fill for CCR? That’s the reality with some shops here in the US. In other places, there isn’t any helium to be had.

That's a perfectly valid reason for moving away from OC. That's not a constraint I'm facing now because of the area I am in so doesn't yet factor into my decision making.
In the future, if my dive shop refused to fill helium for OC, I just wouldn't do any dives that needed helium. CCR has a risk profile that I'm unwilling to take on on top of the large initial equipment and training investment.
I can fully appreciate another diver not wanting to give up the ability to dive at depths needing helium and doing whatever it took to be able to do those dives.

I don't think an increase of a few hundred is really the issue here. I think the issue is more of decreasing availability and 5x or more increases in cost over time. If you wind up with $1000 more per month for helium in a month affect your decisions? It will affect the decisions of many.

Oh, I'm sure even a few hundred more per month would affect the decisions of many. As I mentioned previously, the current costs combined with how frequently I incur them, are not a deterrent for me. I'm certainly not advocating everyone do that.

As far as availability, it comes down to the choices I mentioned above and I'm just stating the choices I'd make.

I wasn't making any blanket statements in my posts, just countering the blanket statements made before me that I knew specifically didn't apply to my diving. Not just mine, quite a few people I dive with.

 

[Adobo]

Well spotted. Ten years in a couple of weeks

Am well aware of the DIR wars and GI3's missives also the change in stance about 7 years ago. Had a dalliance with GUE in the beginning of my career.

As previously said, the principles of DIR has done so much for diver safety and standards, certainly compared with the wild-west of decades ago.

Whilst DIR evolved from cave diving, it's the wider world that has adopted much of its concepts. Longhose, standard gases, kit configuration.

The challenge now is the brave new world of helium rationing; the old standards simply cannot be used -- nobody's going to dive 21/35 for a 35m/115ft dive on open circuit. If you're *truly* wedded to DIR then you would never dive without standard gasses. Even if they're adapted, for example 25/25 down to 45m/150ft, it's still not viable on open circuit.

And here we are back at the nub of the matter. Our OP wants to dive deep and needs a way forwards. Either it's back to Causteau's day and deep air (please don't), or it's CCR.

Just for one moment accept that the only true DIR-compliant rebreather is a GUE JJ. How will you ever get to use that if you have to be T2 qualified in an environment without helium?

Practically this means the route to CCR for our OP is not GUE, but is TDI, IANTD and all the other agencies who are running the manufacturer-specific MOD1 (which allows helium) and MOD2 classes (which adds long deco within bailout constraints).

So that we are on the same page…

There is DiR, the diving approach used by the WKPP and by and large, taught by GUE. Then there is the universal “doing it right”. Whether or not DiR is doing it right, each person has to decide for themselves.

This is the DiR forum. I have politely stated from the beginning of this thread that if the OP is interested in opinions from a broader community, the discussion should happen in another forum. There are lots of other places in scubaboard to have such discussions.

In this forum, the goal is to give the DiR answer. You want to ask what the DiR answer is, great. You want to ask why the DiR answer is the DiR answer, fine. If you want to advocate your own diving approach from whatever agency or whatever instructor, by all means, have at it. Just do it somewhere else please.

 

[Adobo]

The diving community's a much calmer place without the likes of GI3's haughty disdain. Zealotry is never a good method of persuasion.

Let’s get real, man. You came to this forum providing non-DiR answers despite being asked politely to provide only DiR answers. And you keep going on and on. You have to expect that some will lose patience with you.