DIR- Generic Tdi Normoxic trimix or CCR?

[Adobo]

I would not want to have to respond to an emergency at 8 g / L.

Ok, we can discuss it another day in another forum. Or not.

But wasn't the requirements prior to T2 being a requirement? My memory could be incorrect on that.

I learned a new term today.

I think this is more of a discussion on the potential evolution of GUE training that may be forced to reflect the reality brought about by ever increasing costs of helium. I wouldn't be surprised if JJ and the others at the top at least discuss it.

I don't have insight to what GUE intends to do from a training perspective. Of course, that topic makes sense to discuss in the DIR forum as likely there are people here who do. Even discussing why the historical position of OC trimix before rebreather is a worthy topic. However, we should at least respect that these were not the OP's intended purpose/topics for this thread.

A few things to note... until about 5 or so years ago, GUE did not even offer a CCR option. They only offered RB80 which is an SCR. And Tech 2 is a prereq for that class. I know a few people in the DIR world that think that CCR is not DIR. (Nor is RB80 unless you are diving it under specific conditions.) To borrow, a term from yesteryear, it is abject strokery.

But to your point, GUE training has evolved. Two examples have already been cited - CCR and sidemount. One thing to keep in mind though, it is not clear whether any of their additions/changes to their class options had cost concerns as primary drivers.

 

[LanceRiley]

While I am a TDI normixic trimix diver, CCR air DIL, I would like to go back, put my doubles together, get a GUE tech fundies pass and take T1, as GUE covers a lot of stuff that others don't (unless they seriously augment their courses).

I'd suggest at least taking fundies and carrying over the learning to whatever you choose.

i have taken up fundies during the pandemic. we found an instructor in our area and since we had a lot of time on our hands since it was a lockdown of some sort but as locals we found ways around it. unfortunately coudn't take tech1 yet since the instructor wasnt able to finish his tech1 instructor training due to the Pandemic. with all the time that i had. took up tdi courses and if the time arrives that i can do T1 i'll take it. I hope theres nothing against... doing both TDI and GUE? i understand im already overlapping but i actually find it interesting. how 2 agencies teach differently. Im not really very political about this. I dive with different people with different training. And we manage to find a common ground to make our tech dives work. (OC Diver , RB80 Diver, Pelagic Diver, Kiss Sidewinder). I try to find and understand the strength and weaknesses of each training agencies. Understand why they do it that way and why not that way.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Two examples have already been cited - CCR and sidemount. One thing to keep in mind though, it is not clear whether any of their additions/changes to their class options had cost concerns as primary drivers.

I don't see how cost would be a factor in sidemount. With regards to not requiring T2 (if my memory is correct) anymore and just requiring T1, I wouldn't be surprised if it was. If I'm not mistaken, 25 T1 dives would be required for taking T2, and then 25 T2 dives prior to taking CCR1. That's a pretty big gas bill. Am I wrong about the requirements?

 

[Adobo]

I don't see how cost would be a factor in sidemount. With regards to not requiring T2 (if my memory is correct) anymore and just requiring T1, I wouldn't be surprised if it was. If I'm not mistaken, 25 T1 dives would be required for taking T2, and then 25 T2 dives prior to taking CCR1. That's a pretty big gas bill. Am I wrong about the requirements?

I honestly don't know. All the CCR folks that I know in my area were tech 2 already before they took the CCR class. I do know that the current pre-req is only tech 1.

Like I said, I don't have insight as to how the classes evolved and how they are continuing to evolve. I can only say that historically, the DIR approach has been to deprioritize cost when making a decision on what tool to use. Choosing a less optimal, more risky solution because it cost less was frowned upon.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Choosing a less optimal, more risky solution because it cost less was frowned upon.

I get that, but the issue is helium is becoming increasingly scarce. Times have changed dramatically and I think agencies have to take that into reality. Can you imagine diving the Britannica on OC helium now? Just a few years ago, a diver racked up a $7000 helium bill at Truk Lagoon. Price would be double now that would cover the cost of training and a rebreather.

I do appreciate GUE's philosophy. It does make a lot of sense. But changing economics do require changes in training. It isn't about being cheap, it is about being affordable/practical.

You want to know how we are planning gasses for expeditions in Greece that I'm putting together? 15L cylinders and using transfer whips as helium is so hard to come by. There's no way we could take enough cylinders for everyone if we were diving OC.

 

[Wibble]

GUE is not DIR. DIR is a philosophy of standardisation of equipment and to a certain extent protocols. GUE is an agency that uses DIR philosophy and also promotes is own equipment and courses. GUE does not own DIR nor is it "the standards setting body".

Example; GUE built their own rebreather, the GUE JJ. This has nothing to do with DIR, it’s simply GUE's proprietary rebreather configuration that is utterly different from just about every other rebreather and the de-facto standards that have evolved, e.g. bailout configuration and usage. DIR it ain’t.

It’s like GUE have blinkers/blinders on over CCR. There are dozens of different units available. None, absolutely none are perfect. All have different features and it is very much a heterogeneous world when diving with rebreathers where most share similar configurations for bailout but each one is different to use. Hence the requirement to be certified on the specific rebreather. Diving in mixed "teams" (different rebreathers) is absolutely not an issue as it’s up to the individual diver to run their unit BUT emergency procedures are pretty much the same — bailout on LHS, unclip the cylinder and pass to the diver that needs it — unless of course you’re diving a GUE JJ.

Even sidemount has evolved into a DIR-like configuration where there’s a long hose bungeed to the RH cylinder with a short hose on the LH side on a necklace. All quite DIR and even a die-hard backmount DIR bigot can get their head around that. BTW sidemount is perfectly applicable to open water diving and is far more accessible than backmount - easier to transport, easier to use, far better redundancy and sublime in the water.


DIR needs to get with the program. It’s no longer a one trick pony of backmount Doin It Rite. Diving standards are far higher. Planning is far better known and standardised on Bhulmann+GF. Helium is hard to source and excruciatingly expensive. CCR and sidemount are very common.

GUE (and UTD) may promote DIR but they do not control it. Where’s the ISO standard for diving?

 

[Wibble]

I don't see how cost would be a factor in sidemount. With regards to not requiring T2 (if my memory is correct) anymore and just requiring T1, I wouldn't be surprised if it was. If I'm not mistaken, 25 T1 dives would be required for taking T2, and then 25 T2 dives prior to taking CCR1. That's a pretty big gas bill. Am I wrong about the requirements?

Goodness knows how anyone could become Tec2 without spending many thousands on helium.

Take the OP; has gone as far as is practical with extended range but unless he's particularly wealthy and has a secret source of lots of helium, his future's either shallow or CCR. It won't be GUE because the costs to achieve the minimum experience would bankrupt a small nation.

This kind of brings up the point that the other agencies have pretty much caught up with standards (agreed, GUE's training is premium) and most people are taught DIR philosophies. It would be really surprising if the OP wasn't taught with a longhose and both deco cylinders left. Valve drills would be the same as GUE's (without the special signalling).

It has to be accepted that CCR is different. There's no longhose (except for the 0.1% diving on the GUE JJ) and balancing a CCR rig is more sensitive so diving Lean Left Rich Right is wholly acceptable (as is bungeeing the cylinders back sidemount style). Whilst a backmount DIR proponent would have an apoplectic fit, everyone else just gets on with it.


The crux is... What is DIR? It should be "best practices" for safe and efficient diving.

 

[PfcAJ]

ITT: person who has a superficial understanding of DIR commenting on what should or shouldn’t be DIR.

 

[Wibble]

ITT: person who has a superficial understanding of DIR commenting on what should or shouldn’t be DIR.

Where's that defined then?

Seriously, where are the "standards" documents describing what is DIR and what isn't?

Backup computer -- on your teammate's wrist? Use of helmet mounted torches? Drills... Standard gasses...???

 

[PfcAJ]

Where's that defined then?

Seriously, where are the "standards" documents describing what is DIR and what isn't?

Backup computer -- on your teammate's wrist? Use of helmet mounted torches? Drills... Standard gasses...???

The “standards” have long been defined. There’s an incredible history of how these things came to be. It’s determined by the folks using the system that do real dives.

Example: You’re always hung up on the back mounted bailout on the GUE ccr. We’ve been doin that with rebreathers for like 25 years. It’s nothing new. It works and it’s consistent. That’s why it’s DIR.