TDI Advanced Nitrox
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blacknet
Contributor
VTWarrenG,
I honestly feel that's a function of the instructor. I am against any instructor who is boastful, machoistic, selfish, egotistical and other things. In the end it's not the agency but the instructor and what is presented in the course. Now if your a badge wearer then yea the agency makes a big importance.
Ed
I honestly feel that's a function of the instructor. I am against any instructor who is boastful, machoistic, selfish, egotistical and other things. In the end it's not the agency but the instructor and what is presented in the course. Now if your a badge wearer then yea the agency makes a big importance.
Ed
Ok I don't teach Deep Air, so its not about money. I teach up to Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures then right into Trimix [actually I am only an instructor to the level of Decompression Procedures] but I am a Trimix diver.
I am not saying that air is better. Trimix is by far a better option.
I am just saying air is a different type of diving just like apnea diving to 300 ft is different.
They both have separate but distinct inherent risks associated with them.
So educate me. Show my literature to back your claims that a dive to 130 feet say for 10 minute is so dangerous that you are required to use Trimix. Heck even PADI says thats OK.
I am not here to pass judgment or to say only my way works. I am using this forum to learn what others know. I just also what to know if its hearsay or has there been evidence to substantiate the claims made
I am not saying that air is better. Trimix is by far a better option.
I am just saying air is a different type of diving just like apnea diving to 300 ft is different.
They both have separate but distinct inherent risks associated with them.
So educate me. Show my literature to back your claims that a dive to 130 feet say for 10 minute is so dangerous that you are required to use Trimix. Heck even PADI says thats OK.
I am not here to pass judgment or to say only my way works. I am using this forum to learn what others know. I just also what to know if its hearsay or has there been evidence to substantiate the claims made
Blacknet
Thank you you have provided evedence for your statements, that is important.
Some people just have stong opinions even with out evedence.
this whole issue about what training agency is supperior is a joke. instead of making strong claims try discribing WHY your favorite course is superior. and I believe you can still only make the claim if you have taken the same course from both agencies.
otherwise you guys are just highschool football players rooting for your own team.
Thank you you have provided evedence for your statements, that is important.
Some people just have stong opinions even with out evedence.
this whole issue about what training agency is supperior is a joke. instead of making strong claims try discribing WHY your favorite course is superior. and I believe you can still only make the claim if you have taken the same course from both agencies.
otherwise you guys are just highschool football players rooting for your own team.
Lost Yooper
Guest
Please tell me that you (or anyone here for that matter) think deep air (to 180') can be taught to be a safe alternative to trimix. If so, we can get this started again, as it's been a while since we've had a decent deep air debate. This is an easy one, but some people will never be convinced of the dangers regardless of the evidence that I and others have put forth. Some people may be silently convinced, but such classes put food on the table.
Perhaps when their own agencies come forward and acknowledge that they have been knowingly putting their students at substantial risk for years, they'll change their mind's. Of course, what are the legal ramnifications of admitting to teaching unsafe dive practices? It always seems to come back to money. This is a supply and demand issue -- plain and simple (as I see it anyway). It has nothing to do with trying to increase the safety of the sport -- nothing.
Mike
PS. I can assure you that I don't roote for my own team (PADI & TDI). I am not an instructor and I'm not finacially affiliated with any diving related organization or dive shop. I'm just diver.
Perhaps when their own agencies come forward and acknowledge that they have been knowingly putting their students at substantial risk for years, they'll change their mind's. Of course, what are the legal ramnifications of admitting to teaching unsafe dive practices? It always seems to come back to money. This is a supply and demand issue -- plain and simple (as I see it anyway). It has nothing to do with trying to increase the safety of the sport -- nothing.
Mike
PS. I can assure you that I don't roote for my own team (PADI & TDI). I am not an instructor and I'm not finacially affiliated with any diving related organization or dive shop. I'm just diver.
Blacknet, as he's prone to do, has compared apples to oranges.
For those of you unable to grasp the concept, so let me spell it out for you: Theres nothing underwater thats worth a recreational* divers life.
For a military diver, yes, there are some things down there that ARE worth their lives. Thats why they practice functioning narked out of their gourds, something they might have to some day. We, as recreational divers have a choice in the matter: We can choose to use the right tool for the job (Helium) or choose not to dive at all. Its not like were not saving the sailors on board the USS Squalus.
Still, notice the language in the cites (you are getting better, Ed, you actually posted something this time, thanks). The first Navy cite says, may enable divers... Wow. What a ringing endorsement of deep air -- not.
The DCIEM cite is even more interesting, for what the statement ...adaptation by divers can probably be attributed to the subjective rather than the behavioral component of narcosis. is saying is that divers FELT they could maintain, though their behavior said otherwise. In other words they were plastered but they didnt think they were.
Sounds just like what happens to people that drink a lot: They dont appear drunk, they dont act drunk and they dont think theyre drunk. But theyre blasted and if faced with an emergency situation, theyre going to react in a blasted manner. Just like when youre narked. As long as everything goes well, you can maintain and come up alive. Faced with an emergency your mental deficit will become apparent. And your mental deficit may be the last thing youre aware of in your life.
Again Ed thanks for the cites, they both support that deep air is a bad thing.
As for the last cite 1937? You think that maybe, perhaps, possibly we might have learned just a teeny bit more about being narked in the last 65 years? I guess Im not surprised at such an old cite, given that no recent studies support deep air (except from those who make money training cowboys).
Deep air is bad, even the cites by blacknet support that position, if youre willing to read them for comprehension.
Roak
Ps. Ed, you ever going to give us that 50s or 60s Helium article you were playing I've got a secret with a few months back?
*I'm using the word recreational as in diving for fun in this case.
For those of you unable to grasp the concept, so let me spell it out for you: Theres nothing underwater thats worth a recreational* divers life.
For a military diver, yes, there are some things down there that ARE worth their lives. Thats why they practice functioning narked out of their gourds, something they might have to some day. We, as recreational divers have a choice in the matter: We can choose to use the right tool for the job (Helium) or choose not to dive at all. Its not like were not saving the sailors on board the USS Squalus.
Still, notice the language in the cites (you are getting better, Ed, you actually posted something this time, thanks). The first Navy cite says, may enable divers... Wow. What a ringing endorsement of deep air -- not.
The DCIEM cite is even more interesting, for what the statement ...adaptation by divers can probably be attributed to the subjective rather than the behavioral component of narcosis. is saying is that divers FELT they could maintain, though their behavior said otherwise. In other words they were plastered but they didnt think they were.
Sounds just like what happens to people that drink a lot: They dont appear drunk, they dont act drunk and they dont think theyre drunk. But theyre blasted and if faced with an emergency situation, theyre going to react in a blasted manner. Just like when youre narked. As long as everything goes well, you can maintain and come up alive. Faced with an emergency your mental deficit will become apparent. And your mental deficit may be the last thing youre aware of in your life.
Again Ed thanks for the cites, they both support that deep air is a bad thing.
As for the last cite 1937? You think that maybe, perhaps, possibly we might have learned just a teeny bit more about being narked in the last 65 years? I guess Im not surprised at such an old cite, given that no recent studies support deep air (except from those who make money training cowboys).
Deep air is bad, even the cites by blacknet support that position, if youre willing to read them for comprehension.
Roak
Ps. Ed, you ever going to give us that 50s or 60s Helium article you were playing I've got a secret with a few months back?
*I'm using the word recreational as in diving for fun in this case.
Just so we all know I defiantly do more Trimix diving than I do air diving. So I agree with the fact that Trimix [helium based] is safer than air diving.
What I want to know is what evidence do you have to support air diving is bad; I would love to read an article that provides me this information. Anything that verifies lost yooper's statement that diving to 131 feet for any length of time is ... well I quote
"I have no respect for any agency that allows, uses, teaches, or otherwise advocates the use of deep air (130'+). It is physiologically dangerous which is so blatantly clear, it's ridicules. Agencies that teach deep air, IMO (of course), are doing this industry a great disservice for which there is no legitimate excuse"
{Sorry Im new here so I don't know the way you guys do your quotes}
This doesn't mean I am taking sides, or that I am advocating deep air dives. I just want to know the physiological side of the story. I like to learn
Both Roakey and lost yooper seem to have good stuff to offer here, but you are both so defensive, which I guess I can't blame you with Ed always at you no matter what you opinion his is automatically the opposite. However Ed I see the occasional beneficial post from you as well.
You three need to decide either you like wrestling with each other, or you can ignore the jabs and keep this site constructive. This is obviously a site that you need to pick sides. Either you are completely for DIR / WKPP or you are totally against. Well I am here to pick up the best information from everybody regardless of agency or project they are with or against. I am from a completely different background of diving, I have nothing but total respect for the contribution that cave divers have done for recreational diving including DIR thinking and the WKPP project. [I too mean recreation as just for fun]
I am still trying to figure out if there is good information to be had here, or does it fall into the same category as most billboards do. Mudslinging central.
What I want to know is what evidence do you have to support air diving is bad; I would love to read an article that provides me this information. Anything that verifies lost yooper's statement that diving to 131 feet for any length of time is ... well I quote
"I have no respect for any agency that allows, uses, teaches, or otherwise advocates the use of deep air (130'+). It is physiologically dangerous which is so blatantly clear, it's ridicules. Agencies that teach deep air, IMO (of course), are doing this industry a great disservice for which there is no legitimate excuse"
{Sorry Im new here so I don't know the way you guys do your quotes}
This doesn't mean I am taking sides, or that I am advocating deep air dives. I just want to know the physiological side of the story. I like to learn
Both Roakey and lost yooper seem to have good stuff to offer here, but you are both so defensive, which I guess I can't blame you with Ed always at you no matter what you opinion his is automatically the opposite. However Ed I see the occasional beneficial post from you as well.
You three need to decide either you like wrestling with each other, or you can ignore the jabs and keep this site constructive. This is obviously a site that you need to pick sides. Either you are completely for DIR / WKPP or you are totally against. Well I am here to pick up the best information from everybody regardless of agency or project they are with or against. I am from a completely different background of diving, I have nothing but total respect for the contribution that cave divers have done for recreational diving including DIR thinking and the WKPP project. [I too mean recreation as just for fun]
I am still trying to figure out if there is good information to be had here, or does it fall into the same category as most billboards do. Mudslinging central.
Hi AquaTec,
Glad to have you on ScubaBoard....
And this really isn't a mudslinging Board....
Just some times a mudwrestling match....
As to your request for evidence....
I don't have the links right now to give you....
But I suppose that I could find them tomorrow when I am awake...
Shoot,
You may even know more about this than I do!
Nitrogen has a negative effect on red blood cells at increased PP...
I understand that it makes them rigid and thus they cause damage to the microcirclatory system...
Well I really don't know anymore about that than what I've been taught...
But from personal experience I do know that I FEEL much better after a dive with helium than after an air dive... even one in the *shallow* end of the *pool* - say 100~120fsw.
Perhaps you know what I am referring to...
The shallow end of the pool being the bay at Whyte Cliff Park??
I see you are from my neghborhood. See you in the water some time
I see you are from my neghborhood. See you in the water some time
blacknet
Contributor
AquaTec,
Interesting post you made. You ask me for scientific cites and I did post some, then you ask the other side and they stomp around like a spoiled child. My money is on the fact that not a single one knows how to do any form of research as they rely on other for that and are HUGE critics. Even then they do the critic all wrong.
Now what you will get is quotes and snippets from what people have stated with no hard core evidence to back them up.
Now getting back on topic. I would be interested in seeing the reaction to the locals who do black coral diving on air. These guys don't even hold a C-card for open water, no formal training but they dive deep air to get the product. Do they get bent and narked? Yes they do to both. Do they know there's something better for them? Yes they do. Can they use it? NO they can NOT use it because they can't afford it. Sometimes the 'better' solution is out of reach and/or economically unviable.
Ed
Interesting post you made. You ask me for scientific cites and I did post some, then you ask the other side and they stomp around like a spoiled child. My money is on the fact that not a single one knows how to do any form of research as they rely on other for that and are HUGE critics. Even then they do the critic all wrong.
Now what you will get is quotes and snippets from what people have stated with no hard core evidence to back them up.
Now getting back on topic. I would be interested in seeing the reaction to the locals who do black coral diving on air. These guys don't even hold a C-card for open water, no formal training but they dive deep air to get the product. Do they get bent and narked? Yes they do to both. Do they know there's something better for them? Yes they do. Can they use it? NO they can NOT use it because they can't afford it. Sometimes the 'better' solution is out of reach and/or economically unviable.
Ed
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