TDI Advanced Nitrox

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VTWarrenG,

Psychology states you can NOT force another person to do something they don't wish to do. I.e. you can lead the horse to water but you can't make them drink.

What part of that didn't YOU understand?

Ed
 
blacknet,

A) I believe you're incorrect. Please provide references. Everything I've ever read has indicated that people can be trained to stop perceiving narcosis, but cannot be trained to stop suffering narcosis.

B) Would you advocate a training program that teaches kids to drive with only 2 beers in their bellies? Or would you advocate that, wherever possible, they shouldn't drive with any alcohol in their system? What's the point of training to resist narcosis, when narcosis is completely avoided by simply using proper gases?

- Warren
 
blacknet,

Psychology states you can NOT force another person to do something they don't wish to do. I.e. you can lead the horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Since when did I try to make anyone do anything?

I believe I stated the following about deep air divers:

Let them kill themselves.

- Warren
 
In a perfect world and on a perfect dive, you'll live through a deep air dive. Throw in a curve ball or have 'ole Murphy unveil his ugly head, and you'll get in trouble. If a situation arises where you actually have to think about complex problems and you can't, then a snow ball ensues that is difficult to stop. In the end, physiology will get you.


Mike
 
I agree with Warren. Why would any agency want to have their name attached to a deep air death? I just don't get it, how do these people look themselves in a mirror and say "we're doing what's right for this sport".
This is like having AA teaching driving under the influence or something. The dangers are proven and real, and the only people who don't seem to get it are those who are either brainwashed or those who benefit financially from deep air classes. There are two distinct solutions (that make sense) to deal with this:

Don't dive.

or

Dive trimix.

:(

Mike
 
VTWarrenG,

Ahh good you brought up alcohol and driving. Yea I feel it's wrong to drink and drive but people do it (was almost killed by a drunk driver, SHE was also convicted of having and using drugs at the time) now the solution is fairly simple. You don't 'force' them to drive sober as that's evading the whole problem. You *EDUCATE* them about alcohol and the dangers then give them education on psychology and behavior change, if they are willing. THEN and ONLY then can adjustments be made. An equal statement is deep air, yea it may not be the smartest thing to do but to force someone to NOT do it is just plain wrong and highly stupid. That's ignoring the problem. The solution is EDUCATE them as to what happens, how it happens and allow the diver to overcome this obstacle.

Now as for references.

From the usn diving manual:

Experience, frequent exposure to deep diving, and training may enable divers to perform air dives as deep as 180-200 fsw, but novices and susceptible individuals should remain at shallower depths. The performance or efficiency of divers breathing compressed air is impaired at depths greater than 180 fsw. At 300 fsw or deeper, the signs and symptoms are severe and the diver may hallucinate, exhibit bizarre behavior, or lose consciousness. Furthermore, the associated increase in oxygen partial pressure at such depths may produce oxygen convulsions.


DCIEM

These results lead to the conclusion that the anecdotal reports of adaptation by divers can probably be attributed to the subjective rather than the behavioral component of narcosis. Dissociation of these components suggests mediation by different brain mechanisms, and it is speculated that the gamma-aminobutyric acidA/benzodiazepine receptor complex, which has been implicated in both the anesthetic and anxiolytic properties of agents such as nitrous oxide, may be involved.

USN reports, 1937 http://www.scuba-doc.com/narked.html
Please see the dealing with section.

They found that experienced workers were less affected, and that the most severe signs and symptoms appeared immediately when the subjects arrived at the target pressure. They discovered that the narcosis intensified with rapid compression.

Not to mention the studies in lithium as a preventive measure for narcosis.

Some mention of it in Edmonds text, Diving and Subaquatic Medicine, 3rd Edition

Seems that most sources state it's the rate of descent, brain chemistry, gas levels, workload and other similar factors.

Some people get narked faster than others.

OH and I almost forgot 2 sources.

JJ's article in the IANTD technical encyclopedia states "there is NO single right configuration"

Contact tom mount and ask him about the narcosis studies where he was the lab rat.


Ed
 
blacknet,

As usual, you missed all the salient points like an absolute champ.

You don't 'force' them to drive sober as that's evading the whole problem.

I'm not forcing anyone. Until I go out emptying people's tanks, there's no force involved. I am trying to educate people. Many people still don't get it.

You *EDUCATE* them about alcohol and the dangers then give them education on psychology and behavior change, if they are willing.

No you don't. You tell them not to drink and drive. If they do, you take away their licenses and *gasp* force them to stop driving.

training may enable divers to perform air dives as deep as 180-200 fsw

This is not training away narcosis. The "better performance" is the result of becoming practiced and learning routines. You could certainly teach someone to drive half-intoxicated, and they might become good at it -- but (I'll ask it once again) -- why bother?

Thanks for posting the DCIEM quote, seeing at it agrees 100% with me.

Not to mention the studies in lithium as a preventive measure for narcosis.

Some mention of it in Edmonds text, Diving and Subaquatic Medicine, 3rd Edition

Seems that most sources state it's the rate of descent, brain chemistry, gas levels, workload and other similar factors.

Some people get narked faster than others.

That's all irrelevant. Thanks.

JJ's article in the IANTD technical encyclopedia states "there is NO single right configuration"

I don't think I ever said a word about "configuration." I was discussing the inevitability of physiological difficulties due to diving deep on air.

Contact tom mount

Why? Tom Mount has already demonstrated his idiocy a number of times.

Please come back on topic, and tell me why deep air is better than trimix.

- Warren
 
VTWarrenG,

Please come back on topic, and tell me why deep air is better than trimix.

How about I do this instead. Contact a moderator and have them delete *ALL* off topic post.

BTW the topic is "TDI Advanced Nitrox" not "advantages of helium as related to narcosis"

Ed
 
Ed,

You have a point -- my original question was whether or not I should take the TDI Adv. Nitrox class. I quickly learned that, no, I should not.

- Warren
 
VTWarrenG,

I see you sided with my original statment on that. The IANTD advanced nitrox is a far superior corse.

Ed
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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