Taking GPS coordinates of a site... captain's permission?

[nimoh]

For clarity, I have never captured GPS info and have no desire to. But I have a problem with this statement. If a service provider whom I am paying has restrictions they wish to place on the provision of that service, it is incumbent upon them to tell me ahead of time. Don't trivialize that responsibility. If you have not stated a restriction, I am perfectly justified to think it is OK unless it is illegal.

All I am saying is that if it is important enough that it would be a deal breaker for booking a boat if you couldn't capture GPS coordinates, then perhaps the diver should ask before booking.

 

[drbill]

I never release the coordinates of my "secret" dive spots, mainly because due to my advancing age I can't remember where they are!

Seriously, dive spots here off Catalina are generally so close to shore (due to the steep offshore slope) that one rarely needs GPS coordinates to relocate them, just a decent understanding of the shoreline. The only reason I keep a few locations secret (or try to) is because of their ecological sensitivity or the presence of rare species.

 

[vladimir]

Have you ever been told that it is against the rules to take a dump on the deck of the boat? Would you expect to be stopped if you assumed that position and started? IMO, both are within the charter's rights to impose and while it would be nice if they told you ahead of time, sometimes there just are not enough people wanting to perform the action to warrant the preemptive warning. I agree it would be nice but I do not see where the charter will have done anything wrong with stopping you even if they had not pre-warned you. Quite frankly, as long as they approach the issue tactfully (not threatening to throw things over), they only stand to lose "you" (the person being stopped) as a customer only while protecting information which they believe to be key to their success. "You" and maybe your dive buddies is still likely better than having a unique site that is not over run with divers and beat up and tough to moor on is probably better for business than losing a bunch of divers because you now offer nothing unique. I agree that losing the numbers is not likely to ever cause an Op to go under but I can still see the benefit to them for having sites to go to that others do not.

The obvious distinction is that the only place where taking a dump is appropriate is in a toilet, whereas taking a GPS reading is appropriate everywhere...except at a few secret dive spots, apparently. The OP was ignorant of this point of etiquette—as are many, I would think. I have never heard of anybody who didn't know it was inappropriate to take a dump on the deck of a boat.

 

[manni-yunk]

Thereis just something about this statement that does not compute. Any one that would be considered to be a competitor most likely knows where all you stationary sites are. Stationary being wrecks reefs ect. The secracy is really a pretty silly concern.

You....are...just...plain..wrong.


Not every boat (charter) knows where every wreck is. I know this for a fact. Some are VERY secretive and will only have certain "invited" charters go to the super secret probation wrecks.

Sure - there are wrecks that everyone knows about - but in general - in my area, there is LITERALLY over 4000 shipwrecks and NO ONE knows where they are all. New wrecks are still found all the time.


The problem here is that people that dont so much boating on their own - or - who have never spent days, weeks, months searching for a wreck - are ASSUMING that every wreck is easy to find and everyone knows where they are. Thats because when you go out on charters - THEY HAVE ALREADY spent the money, invensted the time, and found thew wreck. That does not mean that everyone knows where the wreck is.

This would not even be a debate on a NJ boat. Pretty much everyone knows the etiquite. Ive never seen it come up.

 

[Mike]

Thereis just something about this statement that does not compute. Any one that would be considered to be a competitor most likely knows where all you stationary sites are. Stationary being wrecks reefs ect. The moving sites such as where the greatest accumulation of sea life is today is another thing. I am more inclined to believe that boats have just mutually agreed not to cut into each others teritorry. In doing so the boat can offer exclusivity to that boats divers at the destination site. The hype of that keeps them coming back to you. Thge idea that i am going to get the lat lon and rent a boat and go there is not a major threat as the locals probably know of the site and the vacationers are not likely to go it on thier own since the cost to do so would exceed the passage to more of your exclusive sites.

Try this.... you and your wife have a service to boat divers to 12 exclusive "SECRET" sites. You have 6 boats in your business with of course 6 captains. One of your boats is now grounded and you cant employ 6 full time captains with only 5 boats.... The odd captain out now works for your major competitor. How does that fit in the paranoia of a customer knowing the locations. My suspicion is that your competitors have had thier employees on your boat and know the spots you have taken them or thier passive loggers to. The secracy is really a pretty silly concern.

So true in all respects.

This whole thing reminds me of Moab Utah and the sport of canyoneering.

There are a number of operations there that will take you with a guide to explore canyons in the area, trips include a guide who will set ropes for repelling, provide lunch and such during your traverses of these areas. When you look at their websites none of the names of the canyon trips match the actual canyon names. For instance there is a canyon named Lathoman Canyon, and they call their trip there Devils Drop Canyon... point being they for whatever their reasons want to avoid naming the names of their sites. Why? Well because their are plenty of amatuer canyoneers that roam the area doing what they offer on their own not needing a guide and I suppose these outfits want to keep these specific trips and locations a secret to keep them as exclusive as you can. Somebody looking at their website and seeing the pictures for Lathoman Canyon instead of Devils Drop Canyon, could simply look at a map and see Lathoman Canyon listed on it and go there and explore it on their own since they now know this must be a good area since they are guiding there.

I always found it quite humorous and futile that they changed the names of the canyons they guided in, and this is the same thing that gets me in this discussion, both of these businesss, the canoneering one in Utah and the dive operators in question here neither of them get it, that their business success relys on providing safe, fun experiences for their clients, their business success is not keeping others from the sites. If they spend their efforts on the former the latter is irrelevant.

 

[Searcaigh]

I have never heard of anybody who didn't know it was inappropriate to take a dump on the deck of a boat.

What about the poop deck?

 

[redacted]

Have you ever been told that it is against the rules to take a dump on the deck of the boat? Would you expect to be stopped if you assumed that position and started? IMO, both are within the charter's rights to impose and while it would be nice if they told you ahead of time, sometimes there just are not enough people wanting to perform the action to warrant the preemptive warning. I agree it would be nice but I do not see where the charter will have done anything wrong with stopping you even if they had not pre-warned you. Quite frankly, as long as they approach the issue tactfully (not threatening to throw things over), they only stand to lose "you" (the person being stopped) as a customer only while protecting information which they believe to be key to their success. "You" and maybe your dive buddies is still likely better than having a unique site that is not over run with divers and beat up and tough to moor on is probably better for business than losing a bunch of divers because you now offer nothing unique. I agree that losing the numbers is not likely to ever cause an Op to go under but I can still see the benefit to them for having sites to go to that others do not.

How would you propose that the boat captain or crew detect the use of a GPS recording device and legally stop someone?

 

[manni-yunk]

How would you propose that the boat captain or crew detect the use of a GPS recording device and legally stop someone?

Seriously????This really isnt that hard and it happens EVERY DAY.......ALL OVER. Detection - there is no real way if a dishonest person knows that it is against the rules, and they sneak a GPS in their bag and leave it turned on, but in their bag.

No one has suggested, or given reference to illegal search violations.



Captains will, if the SEE it - take it from you on the water - and Ask you not to bring it if they see it on the land. Most people (99.9%) either comply or sneak it.


This isnt that hard.

It is COMMON and accepted etiquite.

 

[ScubaSteve]

How would you propose that the boat captain or crew detect the use of a GPS recording device and legally stop someone?

Trust. If somebody pulls one out where it is not allowed, ask them to refrain. If they refuse, then I suppose either that diver is banned from the charter or if the law can be put into action, then let it roll. Either way I do not condone people breaching that trust OR threatening. This is far too stupid a topic for either IMO.

---------- Post added January 9th, 2013 at 11:20 AM ----------

The obvious distinction is that the only place where taking a dump is appropriate is in a toilet, whereas taking a GPS reading is appropriate everywhere...except at a few secret dive spots, apparently. The OP was ignorant of this point of etiquette—as are many, I would think. I have never heard of anybody who didn't know it was inappropriate to take a dump on the deck of a boat.

First of all, you are well enough travelled to know that a toilet is not always involved in bodily movements. Not everywhere. I agree that social convention does dictate you go in the toilet however my real point was, rules are not always spoken. Some are assumed to be known and some simply do not warrant speaking on every single phone call, and every discussion in the shop and every dive brief..........when it becomes an issue we will deal with it. Problem is you get some dumbasses that are going to demand the boat get turned around immediately for a full refund because they were asked not to take a GPS reading. Talk about ruining it for the rest of the boat. Yeah, that os reasonable .

 

[Tigerman]

Why do people go on about SNEAKING ABOARD anything? As long as youre allowing people to bring cameras and phones aboard, you effectively allow them to bring GPS units, get over it..