Suunto Vyper **SERIOUS BUG** in CNS O2 computation

[scubasean]

My question is...When are you guys going to consider this discussion over? Surely you aren't waiting for the other guy(s) to suddenly say "By gosh, I hadn't thought of that. You're right!"

It is quite entertaining though.

 

[Genesis]

to either put up or shut up.

That is, if he's so certain he's right - that the profile I posted is entirely due to the 1 or 2-second violation of the MOD, and NOT due to an error in computation, then he should be more than willing to put his money where his mouth is.

Of course instead of an acceptance of that challenge I got instead another rant about how I haven't "proved" anything...

No courage to back up his convictions..... on Jamei's side, that is. In issuing the challenge I made clear that I believe what I'm seeing is real and I further believe why its happening.

I'll go prove it in the pot with or without the bet, and then submit the proof to the CPSC and raise unholy hell about it.

Neither Suunto or the LDS involved has responded to me, at least not yet.

So much for "buying from an LDS" being considered a move that brings support and assistance. Yeah, right.

All it bought me was a higher price.

Fortunately I have since learned from my mistake.

 

[jamiei]

Back to the issue and aside from childish betting... What is that all about??? You made an issue that you didn't provide hard proof on. You keep saying it "would" do this and it "would" do that but you've never seen it during a dive. "If" this had happened and "if" that were different, this would have happened. It's your claim, why should I bet you just so you'll back it up? You need to put up or shut up, not me...I'm just saying you haven't proven that there's a bug during dive mode. Only that its in simulation mode, which again, I showed that suunto has already stated the the vytec had trouble between sim mode and dive mode. Could be that your vytec is figuring wrong since you have only done the profile with both in sim mode. I'm not saying its true, but have you checked to see if your Vytec was part of the recall?


If its wrong, it is and I'll be glad to admit that when I see it. You keep going back to NOAA limits and tables which does not matter. You whine because you violate the MOD of the computer and it rounds the PO2 up on you. The only thing you showed was that on a dive that averaged 104' and that you violated the suunto's MOD (at 108'), that it only gave you 3 bars at the end of the dive. Its conservative, but not that far off considering it was figuring a PO2 of 1.5 or 1.6 after you went past the MOD. Tables said 13-17% and the vyper said 18%... Thats not rapid acceleration, its conservatism. As you say, TRY AGAIN... You say you have no warning that it is occuring... does that OLF graph jump up 3 bars at a time? Thats your warning... watch your guages.

What it actually does is accelerate BEFORE the setpoint is reached, due to a bad calculation, which means that I cannot "trust" the CNS loading display. That's bad, in that it destroys the validity of the measurement that it purports to make.

How can you validate that claim? Cause you say so?

Quite honestly, IMHO the "warp acceleration" is improper until you exceed 1.6, as there are NOAA guidelines for 1.5 and 1.6 exposures, but I can live with that, as its (1) documented, and (2) so long as it is actually implemented as it is documented I can deal with it.

In your opinion/according to the NOAA guidelines... Suunto doesn't give a rats terd what your opinion of how they should make their computers is. Violate a limit, you get penalized... its right there in the manaul. It's Suunto's computers, not yours or the NOAA's so don't say they should follow them to the letter. As usual, you prove nothing. I've never said there wasn't a problem, only that you haven't shown evidence in support of the problem you claim exists. You say that a problem in SIM mode is unsafe to divers... I can bet you that when you're under water, that vyper is not in SIM mode...its in dive mode and thats what counts. The suunto says in their manual that if you go past any limits, the dive calculations will adjust to that. Rounding up is another keystone to using tables and is silly to not expect the dive computer to do this as well. Go past 1.4 at all and it has to round up to 1.5. You can't replace the human mind... we can rationalize certain things that no computer can.

 

[Genesis]

Go past 1.4 at all and it has to round up to 1.5.

Round up to 1.5.

It instead accelerates the CNS loading to roughly TEN TIMES the computed value.

If it rounded up to 1.5, and then loaded at that value, there would not be a problem.

But that's not what it does.

There is nothing "childish" about the challenge to you to put your money where your mouth is Jamei. Either you believe your bluster or you're just flaming me for sport.

If you believe your B.S., then put your wallet where your mouth is, and accept the challenge. I will even videotape the test if you'd like, although the profile download ought to be good enough evidence for anyone - its darn hard to "fake" a downloaded profile in SDM.

If you refuse to accept the challenge, then I'll run the test anyway, as I'm more than a bit interested in seeing this fixed, given that I intend to give this computer to my g/f for her to use - and I would really prefer that it correctly compute CNS loading. Since Suunto and my LDS have, so far, both failed to respond in any constructive manner to this (and both of THEM have the ability to reproduce this in a pot in about 15 minutes, should they choose to do so) I can only surmise that they don't think that responding is on their priority list.

That's cool - and it will guide my actions on this matter.

The only remaining issue, Jamei, is whether you've been flaming me for the last two days for sport or whether you actually believe the garbage that's been emitting from your keyboard.

If the latter, then put your wallet where your mouth is.

If not, then you've admitted that this was all for sport and pollution of the discussion rather than an actual belief that you hold.

There's nothing childish at all about establishing your motives.

I think I've done quite an acceptable job of that.

Last chance.

 

[jamiei]

Thats rediculous... I'm not flaming you... I'm saying that its irresponsible to make claims like you're an expert that you have NO hard evidence of. I know how you are so it doesn't surprise me at all. I'm not a betting person... I don't believe in it and it really wouldn't accomplish a single thing now would it? Besides proving that you have the mindset of a 12 year old apparently. AGAIN, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but your evidence doesn't back up your claim. It just doesn't fit and until you provide something that does fit, hell no I'm not gonna blindly believe anything you spew out. You say it accelerates the OLF calcs, but not because you violated its MOD for 32% and it adjusted the PO2 accordingly, but just because its wrong... Again, just because you say so. The proof lies in what happens in the end... Nothing will come of this because you won't prove it.
As usual, you run your mouth and a few people believe what you say and a few know how you are and think you're full of it. Nothing changes... You make a lot of claims but have no evidence. Then you try and get me to make a stupid bet and because I'm too mature for such a thing, you try and use that as proof that you're right... Damn man... thats weak. I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone. I don't own a vyper so I have no vested interest in the matter. Wether there's a bug or not won't affect me one bit either way so I don't care. I do enjoy a good argument, but not just for the sake of argument but to bring the truth to light. Only you have that power... whether you're wrong or right doesn't matter to me. It does matter that you feel you can make claims that affect others views and concerns without providing substantial evidence to back it up. Thats somewhat like yelling fire in a movie theatre because you smell smoke... Could be burnt popcorn or a kid lighting up in the theatre... but a fire??? Did you actually see fire? Did you Karl??? When you do, let me know and I'll run like hell with you... But until then... lets not get everybody stirred up... thats what gets people hurt

 

[jamiei]

By the way, its not a belief I have... you're right and its not for sport... its for the truth and its a fact... you haven't proven anything other than that the suunto is conservative and we all knew that already. Thats pollution...

 

[Genesis]

No big surprise.

I may have to build a pot - I don't happen to own one - if the wonderful LDS where I bought this thing won't let me use theirs.

But build it I will if I must....

One way or another, I will find out what's going on.

 

[jamiei]

Lets just say you are right... doesn't really matter to me if you are... how is anything gonna come of it unless there's actual proof? And if nothing gets done about it, what's the use it going on and on about it? That's you're motivation for providing proof Karl, not a testosterone induced bet... You're not trying to convince me or prove me wrong, you're supposed to be trying to get a problem fixed if it exists. Isn't that why you started this thread?

 

[jamiei]

What is the issue? I thought it was whether there was a safety concern with the vyper or not... Now the issue is whether or not I believe in betting? I don't and I sincerely hope you respect that. I respect your concerns about the vyper, I just ask that you provide evidence to support it. You can't run around making accusations and not provide proof.

Why won't they let you use it? Cause you're a pain in the @ss? Now you can't find a POT... excuses excuses... If you were serious about it, you could find one or you could do a controlled dive down a line to 107' and sit there for 15 minutes and then slowly go back up the line... Sounds like the cheapest way to go to me... would be boring but you could provide more proof of your accusation.

 

[Genesis]

you're the one who has gone on the attack here - attacking me, attacking my diving, calling me reckless, claiming I've abused the computer, and on and on and on.

When I came to the conclusion that the only way to settle this contest with you - not with Suunto, which I am and will persue separately - was to ask you to either put up or shut up, you instead dodge the issue and refuse, but you continue to flame away.

Jamiei, make up your mind.

If you don't believe that there is a problem, that's fine. But if you really don't believe it, then why are you so unwilling to put the courage of your convictions to the test?

Your refusal seems to point to one simple fact - you're not actually convinced that all your protests about my diving - and my logs - say what you claim they say.

In other words, you have been attacking me for sport, or perhaps even pecuniary interest - but what is now established is that you were not challenging me on the basis of true belief that what I am asserting is not actually occurring.

Never mind that I'm not the only one who has managed to reproduce this. Another member here has in simulation mode, and Rich over at SDN claims to have profiles from actual dives in which the computer toxed him at roughly 15 minutes.

Now I have not seen those profiles - so I don't have independant verification. But what I do have is a couple of anomalous logs that appear to support the existance of the bug, and a couple more from my Vytec that do not show it - and indeed, the Vytec doesn't show it in SIM mode either.

You claim that the COBRA doesn't show it in SIM mode as well, which would imply that this problem exists in some models but not others. We do not yet have any reports from Mosquito or Stinger owners - I'd like to have some, but don't own either of those computers, and given that my LDS appears to be ducking the issue, I'm not at all sure they'll let me play with the ones in their display case in SIM mode to see if they do the same thing or not. I WILL ask though.

I will also find a way to get my Vyper in a pot, even if I have to build the pot. After all, we are only talking about 4-5 ATM of pressure here - not a lot - and certainly not enough to make the engineering of the pot difficult. I can probably make a servicable pot out of large-diameter PVC pipe for that pressure, with the challenge being the viewport so I can see the face of the computer during the test.

If I cannot find a shop that will allow me to use theirs for this purpose, I will certainly engineer my own.

It is important enough to me to do it, and the labor involved is not significant.

Alternatively, if I can find a suitable place, I will set up the computer for an actual dive and take it with me - but that is less desirable, simply because if I make so much as a 1' error in depth (which can be a matter of exactly where the computer is on my body!) you will AGAIN claim the test to be invalid. Since I will have to do this dive for the explicit purpose of this test, and 110' water around here is a good 20nm offshore, that means I get to burn over 100 gallons of diesel in my boat in the sole persuit of this - sure, I can do it, but I'd prefer to shoot fish on my dives rather than do this.

One way or another I will perform a "true test" Jamiei; the only issue remaining is whether you truly believe in what you've been spewing for the last three days - or whether this is just another example of a personal attack on SB, and another person (you) who needs to go in my "ignore" list here.

I know what I believe given that you have pointedly refused to accept the challenge to put your money where your mouth is.