Support my LDS? Really?

[So-Tx-Rich]

Again, HAHA! I love it when new users join and start making the same tired old attacks. "you don't live next to the ocean, so aren't a real diver"..... and of course, "You actually post on this forum so must never dive". Your attacks are just pathetic.

Who is attacking? You started this nonsense by trying to discredit me for stating my experiences and the reasons I do what I do....and then by saying because I'm an instructor I MUST be out to somehow deceive inexperienced divers?? Then you decide to play the victim?? I'm done with you, dude. You don't warrant further response. Buh Bye.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Boys boys please, I love a good flame war but let's not get carried away here.

Yes, dive shops can book trips on boats but they also mark them up. They're a middle man. The internet is changing that too. Now anybody can research and book a trip themselves on a boat, imagine that!
Signing up on a dive shop chartered boat doesn't mean that you are guaranteed a great group of people either. How do you know who's going to be on that boat?
The best way is for a dive club to charter the boat so that all the members (who know each other) can get a wholesale price.

I had an LDS once tell me that they lose money on air fills. I told them to stop doing them then. They said they couldn't do that because they would lose too much money and go out of business (scratching head ????)

There's a shop down on the breakwater in Monterey California that survives on nothing but air fills, probably to the tune of 200 to 300 a day on the weekends in the summer. Their second biggest sale is suit and gear rentals. If they had to try and survive on sales they would be gone by now. The owner is smart, he knows where the money is and how to survive.
I was thinking that if all the LDS's went OOB where I live I could gather my arsenal of tanks, drive three hours down the freeway to Monterey and just get them all filled there.
The dude's a kick to talk to also so hanging out waiting would be fun.
Get a few dives in along the wall while I'm at it.
And I don't have to listen to a bunch of bull sh_t about how much money he's losing on fills.

 

[Them]

I had an LDS once tell me that they lose money on air fills. I told them to stop doing them then. They said they couldn't do that because they would lose too much money and go out of business (scratching head ????)

Sounds like they knew their business quite well.

In retail there is something called a Loss Leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader ... the business chooses a product everyone buys and sets the price at very low or even negative margins to get customers in the door. Divers buy air, and more importantly nowadays they can't buy air online, so it is a good candidate for loss leader pricing. Get people in the door with cheap fills and you can sell some of them gear, training, travel, etc. (which won't be at a loss) and quite a few of them wickedly high margin small incidentals (defog and the like - things you may remember on your way to the dive).

Business 101.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sounds like they knew their business quite well.

In retail there is something called a Loss Leader Loss leader - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... the business chooses a product everyone buys and sets the price at very low or even negative margins to get customers in the door. Divers buy air, and more importantly nowadays they can't buy air online, so it is a good candidate for loss leader pricing. Get people in the door with cheap fills and you can sell some of them gear, training, travel, etc. (which won't be at a loss) and quite a few of them wickedly high margin small incidentals (defog and the like - things you may remember on your way to the dive).

Business 101.

And that's exactly the business model that's putting so many of them out of business. It worked well until the Internet came along. Unfortunately, rather than changing with the times, the majority of them sit around bitching about the good old days, and turning away business with their attitude.

Loss leaders always come with a price ... and the smart shopper will put some effort into discovering what it is, and finding ways to get the loss leader without paying it. Patronizing a business doesn't involve "loyalty" ... you're not a dog, you're a customer. Businesses deserve your business when they provide a fair service for a fair price. Those who behave as though their customers somehow "owe" them something only deserve to go out of business.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[redacted]

....and then by saying because I'm an instructor I MUST be out to somehow deceive inexperienced divers?? .

I think you pretty much acknowledged that when you admitted that 25% of your trips are payed for by LDS customers Paying to go on S organized trips. This after touting how divers need LDSs to organize trips to get "group savings". Some may have misunderstood that post and thought those savings went to the customers rather than the LDS.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Let's clarify something about dive trips. Whether or not you get advantage from an LDS has nothing to do with "group rates" ... those savings are absorbed by the dive op, since making money on these trips is the entire reason why they do them. Sure, the organizers recognize some savings ... but the savings from "group rates" are rarely, if ever, passed on to the customer. That's not why people will want to use the LDS to organize their trip.

The advantage to the LDS is that they'll do all the leg work, send people along to handle snafus and details that customers can't or don't want to deal with, provide a social environment in terms of putting together groups who know each other, or have enough in common to enjoy the social aspects of the trip, and deal with the details of getting you there, organizing events while you're there, and getting you home again. In effect, the LDS is operating as a travel agent, and you're paying for the service. There's rarely a financial benefit to the individual diver for going this route ... but there can be many benefits if the diver wants to travel with an organized group and doesn't want to deal with all the details of trip organization..

For those who don't mind ... or prefer ... to organize their trip, they can sometimes do so less expensively than by going through a dive shop ... sometimes by working directly with the dive operation, or by using the services of Orbitz, Travelocity, Expedia, or any number of other types of services to do the work themselves.

"Group rates" have nothing to do with it ... your LDS won't simply pass those lower rates on to the individual divers. It wouldn't make any sense for them to do all the work of organizing a trip unless they could see some financial benefit for themselves, and that's usually how they gain it. Nor should we expect them to ... there's always a price to pay for service ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[So-Tx-Rich]

I think you pretty much acknowledged that when you admitted that 25% of your trips are payed for by LDS customers Paying to go on S organized trips. This after touting how divers need LDSs to organize trips to get "group savings". Some may have misunderstood that post and thought those savings went to the customers rather than the LDS.

Did you catch the part where I said I work my tail off on those trips to make sure our customers don't have to?

 

[redacted]

Did you catch the part where I said I work my tail off on those trips to make sure our customers don't have to?

How many dives did you miss doing all that work? If you did a good job planning and booking the trip, you should not have to do much at all. Clearly nothing that would cause you to miss a single dive.

My problem with dive shop sponsored trips is the deception. Have you or your shop ever told a customer that they can probably book the trip cheaper on their own. Of course not. Do you get pissed if someone tells a prospective customer the truth? Sure, for new divers, a shop sponsored trip may be the easiest way to get their feet wet with dive vacations. But they rarely realize they will spend hundreds more going that route than they would shopping around for favorable dates and rates.

 

[So-Tx-Rich]

How many dives did you miss doing all that work? If you did a good job planning and booking the trip, you should not have to do much at all. Clearly nothing that would cause you to miss a single dive.

My problem with dive shop sponsored trips is the deception. Have you or your shop ever told a customer that they can probably book the trip cheaper on their own. Of course not. Do you get pissed if someone tells a prospective customer the truth? Sure, for new divers, a shop sponsored trip may be the easiest way to get their feet wet with dive vacations. But they rarely realize they will spend hundreds more going that route than they would shopping around for favorable dates and rates.

I have not missed a dive....at the end of the day, it's what I am there for. The work part happens in dealing with the hotels, transportation, LDS, and boat crews at the destination. No, I have not told anyone that they could book cheaper elsewhere. I've never been asked. If asked, however, I would answer honestly. People aren't stupid....if the price sounds bad, they will shop it. Do you tell people to look elsewhere for your company's product? Look, nobody said the dive shop does this for free. They do, however provide a service for your money, and I stand by my statement that the prices are reasonable and often times cheaper. The dive leader's "fare" often times isn't even covered from profits. It is covered by the resort that is trying to get you to book with them as an incentive to buy their product.

I'll tell you all what: Price yourself a 7 night vacation to Cozumel including airfare, hotel, breakfast and 6 days of boat dives. The last one I booked was $695. Let me know how much you beat that by and then let me know if having someone to deal with every little detail for you is worth the difference. If it isn't, then by all means, enjoy your trip. If it is, then bay all means, enjoy your trip...and I will be there to make sure you do. And if you can't beat that price, then hey...best of both worlds for you, because my price is still good, and you still get me to be your personal assistant.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'll tell you all what: Price yourself a 7 night vacation to Cozumel including airfare, hotel, breakfast and 6 days of boat dives. The last one I booked was $695. Let me know how much you beat that by and then let me know if having someone to deal with every little detail for you is worth the difference. If it isn't, then by all means, enjoy your trip. If it is, then bay all means, enjoy your trip...and I will be there to make sure you do. And if you can't beat that price, then hey...best of both worlds for you, because my price is still good, and you still get me to be your personal assistant.

Did your clients also pay $695 for that same trip? If so, it was a screaming deal. But if what you're quoting was what you paid ... and they paid a higher price ... then that's exactly the deception awap is talking about.

When quoting such things, it helps to compare apples to apples.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)