Sunpak G-Flash Underwater Strobe

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Bob, you're right that the G-Pak does have a narrower beam. Even they recommend using it with the included diffuser at all times when shooting underwater. With the diffuser, however, I havent found too many problems with light fall-off on the corners on the 28mm end of my S70... it provides fairly uniform illumination edge-to-edge on the frame. But of course, with a diffuser, it is going to have a lower GN than more expensive flashes.

Can you actually use DS-125s for WA shots without diffusers? What is the maximum angle of coverage they provide? I am trying to decide between 2 DS-50s or 2 DS-125s for a housed SLR rig.

Vandit
 
I am trying to decide between 2 DS-50s or 2 DS-125s for a housed SLR rig.

dSLR cameras have the ability to stop down their apertures (high f/stop numbers such as f/22 and beyond) much further than a typical point and shoot camera (say f/8). Many of them also have sync speeds to consider. iow, you can not choose relatively fast shutter speeds to help influence background exposures. So in some instances in order to balance foreground and background lighting powerful strobes are preferred (required?). dSLR cameras also have the option of adding relatively very wide lenses which in return require strobes that emit very wide beam angles.

The Ikelite DS 125 has an angle of coverage of 90° without a diffuser (100° with)*. A pair of them together should illuminate a field of view about 8 feet wide at a lens to subject distance of 20 inches with strobe arms consisting of 2x6" sections. If you were four feet from lens to subject, you could tilt the heads out slightly to avoid illuminating the particles that create backscatter or opt for longer strobe arm sections.

The DS 50 offer an angle of coverage without the diffuser of 70° under the same testing procedures. I believe the diffuser increases the AOC to around 90°.

Beam angle is one aspect to consider when choosing a strobe. Recycle time is another. When compiling the Strobe Finder along with Ryan Canon and Richard Perry, we attempted to identify as many strobe characteristics as possible to include into data fields. There are also explanations to terms commonly used in describing strobe characteristics. The Strobe Finder can be found at:

http://www.digitaldiver.net/strobes.php

It is free, you do not have to join anything. All data is supplied by the manufacturers except for the weight underwater (negative buoyancy) of the DS 125 strobe which I tested myself.

Can you actually use DS-125s for WA shots without diffusers?
yes.

I am trying to decide between 2 DS-50s or 2 DS-125s for a housed SLR rig.

for dSLR use, most people I know would choose the DS 125 over the DS 50. The third option is the new DS 200.

http://www.ikelite.com/web_pages/substrobe_ds200.html

BTW, the best online aid in addressing strobe placement strategies that I know of can be found at Chris Simmons website:

http://www.kelpfish.net/strobe.html

I have no financial affiliation with any underwater equipment companies.

regards,
b

*According to stated Ikelite testing procedures there will be less than a one stop variance of intensity within the beam field created. There will also be light emitted by the strobe outside this stated coverage area, but that light will be more than a one f/stop difference in intensity than found within the stated coverage area. This is important to state because there does not exist uniform testing procedure among strobe manufactures. Therefore, the claims of one company cannot necessarily be compared to another. otoh, comparisons within a strobe manufacturers line should be comparable.
 
Hey, thanks for that kelpfish.com link! That's a really handy page and I'm gonna look at it in more detail tomorrow.

Looking at the specs in the strobe finder page, I think 2 DS-50s ought to do the trick - underwater, there isnt a huge drop-off in power either (GN 10 vs 9). I assume that the DS50s will have to be placed with their heads pointing in more than DS125s - would that be a problem if I am using a lens with a FOV of <140 degrees (2 x 70)?

And good point about the sync speeds - have actually been considering the Nikon D50 for underwater use - its got a sync speed of 1/500, IIRC. Need to play with one to see what it feels like before deciding, though.

Vandit



(*That's where I had gotten my G-Flash-Ike comparison from, I remember now)
 
vkalia:
And good point about the sync speeds - have actually been considering the Nikon D50 for underwater use - its got a sync speed of 1/500, IIRC.

1/500 is kinda overkill, and unless you bump up the ISO, you'll never see that shutter speed underwater if you are balancing the flash with any type of background.

1/250 is certainly fine for stopping action UW, and preventing camera shake.

Most of my shots were done at 1/100, but if I had a DSLR UW, I'd be shooting a bit faster, maybe 1/160 depending upon the lens choice, and light of course.

One thing that I believe the DS125 has over the DS50 is a focusing/modeling light.

That's something to consider, but it also burns batteries.
 
RonFrank:
1/500 is kinda overkill, and unless you bump up the ISO, you'll never see that shutter speed underwater if you are balancing the flash with any type of background. 1/250 is certainly fine for stopping action UW, and preventing camera shake.

I agree.

[/QUOTE]
One thing that I believe the DS125 has over the DS50 is a focusing/modeling light.
That's something to consider, but it also burns batteries.
[/QUOTE]

The problem with the modeling light is that some folks have very long strobe arms so the light from the built in modeling light does not reach the subject, to make it worse they do not use the entire strobe's beam, only the edges to "paint with light". The rest of the energy will be wasted on the openwater or reef, that now includes the modeling light!
 
bobf:
... Possibly SeaYoda could report back and share with us the shape of the G Flash diffuser's outer surface. If indeed the G Flash diffuser is curved, then I would tend to agree that it too will help spread the light beam. If it isn't curved, then I'm not sure, but a simple test could confirm.............
The diffuser is flat on the front with just curved edges. It did make a big difference whether it spread the light or just took out the most powerful part of the beam. The light did not have the same drop off at the edges with the diffuser as without (not a scientific test but it was easier to get things evenly lit up). I'm hoping to get in the water tomorrow to play with the strobe some more. If the weather holds, I'll post what I get. I'll probably be shooting rocks instead of fish in order to get the feel for the new focus light set-up (my buddy is going to be bored for sure! :D).

Here is a picture of the diffuser from a side angle:

diff.jpg
 
I have to disagree about shutter speeds. I routinely shoot at 1/320 (the fastest mine will synch) on the dslr and many times wish I could go faster. I can't remember the last time I dropped to 1/125 or slower. Getting a black background (or even a deep blue) with this slow shutter means you have to go to a small aperture - in effect, you only have one way to do it instead of having choices. It wouldn't make me switch to Nikon and didn't make me head for Nikon in the first place, but I think it could be an issue for some shooters.

When I shoot with the Oly 5050 and a strobe I routinely use 1/800 and faster, again for darker or black backgrounds.

Some of it is going to be determined by what the water is like where you shoot most often. The brighter is it there, the higher your shutter (or smaller your aperture) is going to have to be for deep backgrounds.
 
Hi Ron,

I'm sorry for the length of this post, but underwater, so many things become intertwined. Combine that with the fact that we all have different shooting goals, and it becomes apparent that any comment that closely resembles a "blanket" statement can come under question.

I agree with you that 1/250 is more than adequate to stop action. But the shutter speed has at least one more important purpose underwater.

Background exposure.

( I know you know these principles, I add the following only for any newbies following our conversation) The combination of shutter speed and aperture controls the background exposure. They accomplish it by influencing how much ambient light is allowed to pass through the lens. The background exposure I would define as any area of the composition that is not influenced by strobe light. Ambient light is light which does not emanate from the strobe.

If our goal is a very dark background in our image to either highlight the foreground dramatically or simply enable the viewer to ignore an otherwise uninteresting or worse yet, confusing "salad", then we must decide whether to increase the shutter or stop down the lens, or possibly even a little of each.

An instance when the option of a faster shutter speed could be beneficial is when shooting into the Sun (sunball) underwater in a close focus wide angle composition.

Fast shutter speeds can also be used to "capture" or freeze sun rays. Chrism is a master at capturing underwater sun rays at speeds up to 1/1000 sec.

Except for the sync speed and potential clipping* issue, the shutter speed has no bearing on the foreground exposure.

The aperture however is influencing the foreground exposure along with strobe intensity. If the lens opening must diminish in size to help control background lighting, then the need for more strobe light increases. As long as the strobe is up to the job, then no problem. On the plus side of a smaller aperture there also comes depth of field. But along with the potential advantage of an increase in depth of field comes a downside, diffraction.

If the digicam being used has a cropped sensor, then dof advantage of a small aperture is diminished somewhat. But there also exists times when dof is not desirable. Say if you wish to accentuate a specific critter from its surroundings or even feature of that critter like the eyes for instance.

Therefore it could be beneficial at times to have the option of a faster shutter in order to decrease the amount of ambient light illuminating the background exposure. This is especially true now that some underwater strobes are able to dump their energy up to five times faster than models of just a couple of years ago. That should negate the clipping issue.

BTW, if your point and shoot digicam is like mine, we do not even have a sync speed issue. But we still are faced with the clipping issue with certain strobes, especially if a full dump is required. BTW, I should explain clipping* for anyone not familiar with the term.

*Strobe flash tubes burn at set "brightness" level. They influence the foreground exposure by how long they remain illuminated. IOW, the strobe is not controlled by a rheostat, the total light output is ultimately controlled by how long the beacon shines. "Burn" time. In order to achieve their full potential, strobes must remain "on" for an "extended" period (we're talking fractions of a second, though)**. If the shutter closes prematurely while the strobe is still "burning", the action may "clip" some of the strobe's output. iow, if the "curtain" comes down too soon on the act, then the exposure will be adversely affected.***

[qoute]you'll never see that shutter speed underwater if you are balancing the flash with any type of background.[/quote]

I commonly shoot with fast shutter speed to completely black out unwanted backgrounds (see image). But then again, and as you suggest, I'm not trying to balance anything. Which is part of my point, sometimes balance is not the goal.

That's something to consider, but it also burns batteries.

True. But in actual use inconsequential. Personally I have never run down a DS 125 battery. My typical profile: two repetitive shore dives (@ 1 hr each, 35+- "average" shots per dive, one hour 15 minute surface interval). Then recharge.

A fully charged DS 125 can illuminate over four rolls of 36 exposure slide film with a full dump on each image, one second apart if necessary (but not advised!!!read: poor fish). If you are not shooting with full dumps, even more flashes per charge are possible. The strobe will fully recharge in 90 minutes using the quick charger. At night the modeling light can be also used as the primary night dive light.

vkalia,

The DS 50s could do what you're attempting. And some divers have gone that route. If you're hesitant to go the DS 125 route due to size, then you might be interested in waiting a month or so for the new DS 80 to be introduce. The 80 stands for watt seconds. Not sure yet how the Ike techs will choose to "spend" those watt-seconds. They could opt for a wider beam angle than the DS 50 or more intensity, that is closer to the guide number rating of the DS 125.

I should point out that you mentioned GN's of 10 and 9 for the DS 125 and DS 50, respectively. Those stated GN's represent the underwater GN measured in meters, ISO 100. To translate that to feet, ISO 100, they would be 32 and 28, respectively. To translate that into topside GN's the Ikelite site suggests doubling those figures. If we are to remind ourselves that this thread theoretically is about the Sunpak, I might as well add that the 22 GN rating supplied by Sunpak for the G Flash is the topside GN, measured through air in meters, ISO 100. The underwater GN should be lower if you take into consideration the density of the medium.

SeaYoda,

Thanks for the images! You may wish to read the article that Jeff Farris authored (link below). In it you will see a topside test he conducted to determine beam angle and flash intensity. Although it does not combine the effects ultimately that water will play with the beams of light, it may help give you and the rest of us an understanding as to how much wider a beam is created with the addition of that diffuser. Good luck and keep up the good work, bud!!!!

**Matthias Heinrichs is compiling a list of strobe full dump speeds:
http://www.heinrichsweikamp.net/blitz/indexe.htm

***Jeff Farris documented the effects of clipping and shutter speed in his strobe survey:
http://www.digitaldiver.net/images/strobearticle/strobearticlescrn2.pdf

note to self: put down the coffee!
 
bobf:
The DS 50s could do what you're attempting. And some divers have gone that route. If you're hesitant to go the DS 125 route due to size, then you might be interested in waiting a month or so for the new DS 80 to be introduce. The 80 stands for watt seconds. Not sure yet how the Ike techs will choose to "spend" those watt-seconds. They could opt for a wider beam angle than the DS 50 or more intensity, that is closer to the guide number rating of the DS 125.

Awesome - thanks again, Bob. You've been super-helpful! I owe you a beer if I ever bump into you...

Small is good - am going back to Africa later this year, to try to make the sardine run, and carrying aboard all my wildlife rig gets a bit dodgy as is - trying to fit in a housed DSLR is going to be a nightmare. OTOH,

I'll probably be waiting for a couple of months anyway - before I get the housing, I want to shoot a littl more with my S70/G-Flash and get a sense of what my own shooting/ergonomic requirements are, and then buy a set-up accordingly. So that gives me time to check out

I should point out that you mentioned GN's of 10 and 9 for the DS 125 and DS 50, respectively. Those stated GN's represent the underwater GN measured in meters, ISO 100. To translate that to feet, ISO 100, they would be 32 and 28, respectively.

Yeah, I'm more of the metric persuasion meself... translated 33 ft == 14.7 psi is best left for the masochists :)

Vandit
 
Well as usual Bob is right on when it comes to UW strobes. No agenda - just balanced facts!

The idea that fast shutters are not useful UW doesn't match my experience. I will never pretend to understand all the tech talk but I do know what works for me.

snapball01_DSC4216.jpg

1/2000 - f6.3 - ISO200



kayak02_DSC3274.jpg

1/500 - f10- ISO200
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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