Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[boulderjohn]

The problem with requiring instructors to take additional classes, as teachers are required to do, is borne out in what happens with the teachers. That requirement creates a cottage industry of people offering classes that meet the recertification requirement but teach little to nothing. They essentially say, "Give me your money, and I will give you your recertification credit." The class I described is a perfect example.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think we can all agree that most people use a different and usually greater amount of weight with a drysuit, and so even if she did a weight check in her wetsuit(s) or lucked out and got an amount of weight she could work with, she still needed to do another weight check with the drysuit.

People generally use more weight with a drysuit than a wetsuit because a drysuit is more buoyant with the air added to inflate it. With no air to inflate it, by the time the diver reached 30 feet, the suit would have been less buoyant than a wetsuit. If she could have stayed at 30 feet with the moderate pain of suit compression, she would have only needed a few pounds of weight, if any at all. (I would not have needed any.) To give her 44 pounds of unditchable weight.....

 

[Coztick]

People generally use more weight with a drysuit than a wetsuit because a drysuit is more buoyant with the air added to inflate it. With no air to inflate it, by the time the diver reached 30 feet, the suit would have been less buoyant than a wetsuit. If she could have stayed at 30 feet with the moderate pain of suit compression, she would have only needed a few pounds of weight, if any at all. (I would not have needed any.) To give her 44 pounds of unditchable weight.....

...by a "professional", CRIMINAL!

 

[boulderjohn]

Threads like this often devolve into the ways that a dive agency should improve the quality of its instructors through some sort of oversight. What the arguments boil down to is this: "Dive agencies should guarantee instructor quality by behaving more like the public education system." As a career teacher and school administrator, I know something about that. Let's take a look at that. Each state is different, but this generally sums things up:

1. In college, prospective teachers must take a number of courses teaching instructional methodology.
2. Prospective teachers must undertake internships and student teaching experiences.
3. Prospective teachers must take state-wide exams.
4. Once hired, new teachers are required to participate in new teacher mentorship programs.
5. New teachers are required to undergo intensive annual evaluations for their first three years.
6. Once past three years, teachers are usually evaluated by a professional administrator at least every other year.
7. Teachers are required to participate in continuing education classes, usually every 5 years.

All of that costs many, many thousands of dollars per teacher. with that money coming from taxes and the teachers themselves. How would such costs be borne by the scuba industry? Now, is anyone going to argue that it ensures that all teachers are top quality?

 

[Wookie]

Threads like this often devolve into the ways that a dive agency should improve the quality of its instructors through some sort of oversight. What the arguments boil down to is this: "Dive agencies should guarantee instructor quality by behaving more like the public education system." As a career teacher and school administrator, I know something about that. Let's take a look at that. Each state is different, but this generally sums things up:

1. In college, prospective teachers must take a number of courses teaching instructional methodology.
2. Prospective teachers must undertake internships and student teaching experiences.
3. Prospective teachers must take state-wide exams.
4. Once hired, new teachers are required to participate in new teacher mentorship programs.
5. New teachers are required to undergo intensive annual evaluations for their first three years.
6. Once past three years, teachers are usually evaluated by a professional administrator at least every other year.
7. Teachers are required to participate in continuing education classes, usually every 5 years.

All of that costs many, many thousands of dollars per teacher. with that money coming from taxes and the teachers themselves. How would such costs be borne by the scuba industry? Now, is anyone going to argue that it ensures that all teachers are top quality?

Apples and oranges.

it’s easy to make the argument that teachers, especially at the grade school level, are mostly doing childcare and babysitting so that parents can pursue a career without the distractions of raising children, and scuba instructors are teaching people to survive in an extremely hazardous environment where the failure of life support or knowledge of emergency procedures results in loss of life.

I don’t want to get into that argument with you, as I respect your position, as well as your credentials, and I know that school teachers are not merely baby-sitters. But some are. And scuba instructors don’t teach life support. But some do.

 

[boulderjohn]

it’s easy to make the argument that teachers, especially at the grade school level, are mostly doing childcare and babysitting sitting...

.[/QUOTE]
It is easy to make any argument, but, OMG!, do you really believe such nonsense, or was that satire?

 

[dlofting]

We do often get into discussions about the quality of scuba training and how that should/could be improved or how a few instructors provide a much higher quality of training with increased expectations of their students. My few years of experience with scuba instructors/divemasters and organizations would tend to confirm all of this.....however scuba is the only activity I have participated in where death is a distinct possibility and where a certification is required to participate.

Canyoneering kills a much higher percentage of people annually than scuba. A course, or at least some time with a guide is recommended, but not required.

Winter hiking, skiing or boarding in the mountains kills more people in avalanches each year in North America than scuba diving does worldwide. Again, an avalanche course is recommended but not required.

Backcountry travel in my area of the world results in lost people on a fairly regular basis...some are injured and a couple each year die or are never found. Courses in backcountry travel and first aid are recommended but not required.

In all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions.

Maybe it's time to stop coddling new scuba divers. Make it clear that scuba can kill you if you don't develop and use the required skills. Point people in the direction of continuous learning and practice.....and it doesn't need to be all formal courses. There is a wealth of knowledge right here on Scubaboard.

Most certification courses only get people a few basic skills, a full tank of air and the right to kill themselves if they don't take responsibility for their own safety.

 

[Marie13]

How many people had actual OW instructors who told them scuba can kill? I did. It was mentioned more than once.

 

[Jcp2]

We do often get into discussions about the quality of scuba training and how that should/could be improved or how a few instructors provide a much higher quality of training with increased expectations of their students. My few years of experience with scuba instructors/divemasters and organizations would tend to confirm all of this.....however scuba is the only activity I have participated in where death is a distinct possibility and where a certification is required to participate.

Canyoneering kills a much higher percentage of people annually than scuba. A course, or at least some time with a guide is recommended, but not required.

Winter hiking, skiing or boarding in the mountains kills more people in avalanches each year in North America than scuba diving does worldwide. Again, an avalanche course is recommended but not required.

Backcountry travel in my area of the world results in lost people on a fairly regular basis...some are injured and a couple each year die or are never found. Courses in backcountry travel and first aid are recommended but not required.

In all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions.

Maybe it's time to stop coddling new scuba divers. Make it clear that scuba can kill you if you don't develop and use the required skills. Point people in the direction of continuous learning and practice.....and it doesn't need to be all formal courses. There is a wealth of knowledge right here on Scubaboard.

Most certification courses only get people a few basic skills, a full tank of air and the right to kill themselves if they don't take responsibility for their own safety.

You could do just that, and watch the supply of commercially produced scuba equipment disappear.

 

[Coztick]

Most certification courses only get people a few basic skills, a full tank of air and the right to kill themselves if they don't take responsibility for their own safety

Fun and affordable helps sell the adventure! I was coping with Instabuddies on my second trip before reality came knocking...