Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

I live in Colorado, where most of the activities mentioned are very popular and where we have deaths every year. An avalanche can take out a back country skier snowmobiler in seconds, so they have to be very alert to danger signs. Rock climbers can fall at any second on a climb if they have not secured themselves properly, and many intentionally shun that security (see the movie Free Solo). Ever see videos of people whizzing through mountain canyons in winged suits? I once drove past a popular landing site for hang gliders. I bet 70% of the people there were wearing casts on some part of their bodies.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I don’t see why we are discussing other activities that have zero relevance to scuba diving, especially instruction.

The closest incident I can think of for mountain climbing to this tragedy was then the Manama clowns took a class of new climbers to Mt Hood in the late 90s (when I was a ski patroller). It was textbook avalanche conditions: significant snow in previous days, significant increase in temperature, and southern exposure to the sun. I spoke to the climbing ranger who was first to respond. One of the students had his head mostly ripped off like a pez dispenser.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The problem with requiring instructors to take additional classes, as teachers are required to do, is borne out in what happens with the teachers. That requirement creates a cottage industry of people offering classes that meet the recertification requirement but teach little to nothing. They essentially say, "Give me your money, and I will give you your recertification credit." The class I described is a perfect example.

I don't think this is a valid argument. Agencies can have online academic exams that ensure that instructors/DMs haven't forgotten the science of diving, are following standards, etc..

Tests for actual skills should have video based which get uploaded and agencies sample check.

There are ways to defeat teaching and then cheaters continue to innovate (such as having someone else taking the online test for them).

While I am not advocating for NTSB type investigations for such incidents, I do believe agencies investigating themselves these incidents to see how their systems can be improved. In some cases, people can still flout the rules and people will continue to die, but hopefully in smaller numbers.

 

[kelemvor]

Threads like this often devolve into the ways that a dive agency should improve the quality of its instructors through some sort of oversight. What the arguments boil down to is this: "Dive agencies should guarantee instructor quality by behaving more like the public education system." As a career teacher and school administrator, I know something about that. Let's take a look at that. Each state is different, but this generally sums things up:

1. In college, prospective teachers must take a number of courses teaching instructional methodology.
2. Prospective teachers must undertake internships and student teaching experiences.
3. Prospective teachers must take state-wide exams.
4. Once hired, new teachers are required to participate in new teacher mentorship programs.
5. New teachers are required to undergo intensive annual evaluations for their first three years.
6. Once past three years, teachers are usually evaluated by a professional administrator at least every other year.
7. Teachers are required to participate in continuing education classes, usually every 5 years.

All of that costs many, many thousands of dollars per teacher. with that money coming from taxes and the teachers themselves. How would such costs be borne by the scuba industry? Now, is anyone going to argue that it ensures that all teachers are top quality?

There's a lot more to it than that, or perhaps Colorado is a bit more lax than Florida. Seems dubious since we've got such a poor reputation for education here. That said, one of the key tools for educator oversight are regular observations. My wife is an elementary school teacher. About once a month either a local administrator or someone from the board does an observation. She's not a baby teacher, having taught elementary for 22 years in FL and 4 years in GA prior to that. There are other mechanisms at play as well, not the least of which is monitoring of student progress (although the techniques used here are widely disputed regardless of the actual technique). Students not progressing? Make a change. Students progressing? Teacher rewarded.

I'm often one that compares scuba instruction to traditional k12 instruction. Perhaps requiring 6-8 years formal education to achieve scuba instructor status is not necessary but 6 months or less that we currently see is not enough imo. Maybe a 4 year program? Two years for diver to become DM, two more for DM to become Instructor. Perhaps a month or two credit for those who start from a MSD instead of SD.

Such a change would certainly benefit instructors and divemasters who complain about too many of the same saturating the employment market. Hopefully instructor quality would increase as a result. At a minimum it would weed out those not truly dedicated to teaching. Billion dollar certification agencies would certainly not be happy.

Of course, increasing rules does not help with instructors who are disregarding existing rules. While I think that would improve scuba instruction it would not likely have saved Linnea Mills. Some form of active oversight by the agency may have. I've often advocated agencies policing their own instructors rather than hoping for a report from a customer who probably doesn't even know there is a problem in most cases.

All that said, I think there are plenty of great instructors in the world as well. I like to believe that the instructors who taught the classes I've taken thus far did a fine job. Those great instructors would still be great instructors under an improved system.

 

[boulderjohn]

There's a lot more to it than that, or perhaps Colorado is a bit more lax than Florida. Seems dubious since we've got such a poor reputation for education here. That said, one of the key tools for educator oversight are regular observations. My wife is an elementary school teacher. About once a month either a local administrator or someone from the board does an observation. She's not a baby teacher, having taught elementary for 22 years in FL and 4 years in GA prior to that. There are other mechanisms at play as well, not the least of which is monitoring of student progress (although the techniques used here are widely disputed regardless of the actual technique). Students not progressing? Make a change. Students progressing? Teacher rewarded.

I'm often one that compares scuba instruction to traditional k12 instruction. Perhaps requiring 6-8 years formal education to achieve scuba instructor status is not necessary but 6 months or less that we currently see is not enough imo. Maybe a 4 year program? Two years for diver to become DM, two more for DM to become Instructor. Perhaps a month or two credit for those who start from a MSD instead of SD.

Such a change would certainly benefit instructors and divemasters who complain about too many of the same saturating the employment market. Hopefully instructor quality would increase as a result. At a minimum it would weed out those not truly dedicated to teaching. Billion dollar certification agencies would certainly not be happy.

Of course, increasing rules does not help with instructors who are disregarding existing rules. While I think that would improve scuba instruction it would not likely have saved Linnea Mills.

All that said, I think there are plenty of great instructors in the world as well. I like to believe that the instructors who taught the classes I've taken thus far did a fine job. Those great instructors would still be great instructors under an improved system.

I think my point was missed.

The public education system spends many thousands of dollars per teacher to ensure quality, and the teachers themselves spend many thousands of dollars in preparation for a job considered to be very low paying in comparison to that preparation. And yet our schools are plagued with truly crappy teachers. There is simply not enough money in the scuba system to support anything like that effort.

You know the old joke, that the difference between a scuba instructor and an extra large pizza is that a pizza can feed a family of four? Right now the dropout rate of instructors is enormous, because they eventually realize it.

 

[Wookie]

I think my point was missed.

The public education system spends many thousands of dollars per teacher to ensure quality, and the teachers themselves spend many thousands of dollars in preparation for a job considered to be very low paying in comparison to that preparation. And yet our schools are plagued with truly crappy teachers. There is simply not enough money in the scuba system to support anything like that effort.

You know the old joke, that the difference between a scuba instructor and an extra large pizza is that a pizza can feed a family of four? Right now the dropout rate of instructors is enormous, because they eventually realize it.

Sure, but the system isn't rigged to prevent dropping out, it's rigged specifically to get them to sign up, and keep them paying insurance for 7 years after they drop out.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You know the old joke, that the difference between a scuba instructor and an extra large pizza is that a pizza can feed a family of four? Right now the dropout rate of instructors is enormous, because they eventually realize it.

I can't think of a better way to spend a gap year with a zero to hero program in some tropical paradise.

I'd be curious what percentage of instructors in SEA are gap year kids.

 

[kelemvor]

I think my point was missed.

The public education system spends many thousands of dollars per teacher to ensure quality, and the teachers themselves spend many thousands of dollars in preparation for a job considered to be very low paying in comparison to that preparation. And yet our schools are plagued with truly crappy teachers. There is simply not enough money in the scuba system to support anything like that effort.

You know the old joke, that the difference between a scuba instructor and an extra large pizza is that a pizza can feed a family of four? Right now the dropout rate of instructors is enormous, because they eventually realize it.

Yep, my bad. I guess I was in left field.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You know, I used to think the exam questions of "how much gas would you need to add to a lift bag to lift an item that is X units of weight/mass that displaces Y amount of water?" as not very applicable.

I'd rather see in the review process, an online question of "diver has a mass of X and displaces Y amount of water with all their scuba gear when at a safety stop". The center of mass is at location P1 and the center of displacement is at P2. How much and where would you place weights so that the diver is properly weighted and is able to be horizontal without sculling?

Some form of that question would be on the yearly exam. The point of this question is to not overweight students and to think about placement of weight so that students can be trimmed.

 

[Wookie]

You know, I used to think the exam questions of "how much gas would you need to add to a lift bag to lift an item that is X units of weight/mass that displaces Y amount of water?" as not very applicable.

I'd rather see in the review process, an online question of "diver has a mass of X and displaces Y amount of water with all their scuba gear when at a safety stop". The center of mass is at location P1 and the center of displacement is at P2. How much and where would you place weights so that the diver is properly weighted and is able to be horizontal without sculling?

Some form of that question would be on the yearly exam. The point of this question is to not overweight students and to think about placement of weight so that students can be trimmed.

Best suggestion I’ve ever heard.