Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

It is easy to make any argument, but, OMG!, do you really believe such nonsense, or was that satire?

Half and half. I truly believe in the American education system, but the case can easily be made that life support training should be to a higher standard than home ec or US history.

 

[Esprise Me]

People generally use more weight with a drysuit than a wetsuit because a drysuit is more buoyant with the air added to inflate it. With no air to inflate it, by the time the diver reached 30 feet, the suit would have been less buoyant than a wetsuit. If she could have stayed at 30 feet with the moderate pain of suit compression, she would have only needed a few pounds of weight, if any at all. (I would not have needed any.) To give her 44 pounds of unditchable weight.....

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't know what you're getting at here. Do you disagree with my assessment that putting Linnea Mills in a drysuit without doing the required due diligence was a but-for cause of her death? Or that, if she'd been diving wet, those other mistakes, inexcusable as they may be, would likely not have been fatal?

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't know what you're getting at here. Do you disagree with my assessment that putting Linnea Mills in a drysuit without doing the required due diligence was a but-for cause of her death? Or that, if she'd been diving wet, those other mistakes, inexcusable as they may be, would likely not have been fatal?

I think that with that much weight with that BCD while wearing a non-functioning drysuit in water that deep, she was pretty nearly doomed when she went in the water. She had no control over her movements. All she could do was stand still and, eventually, fall over. If she had entered the water with a wetsuit and reasonable weight, she would have been very cold, but she likely would have been alive when she headed out--which would have been pretty quick.

When Bob tried to help her, he could not release her unditchable weights. He could not lift her himself. (I will bet everyone, including him, was overweighted.)

 

[Wookie]

When her brother tried to help her, he could not release her unditchable weights. He could not lift her himself. (I will bet everyone, including him, was overweighted.)

I don’t believe Bob was a brother, he was enrolled in a dry suit course in progress that Linnea joined as a AOW student, which is why she missed the dry suit orientation for the class.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don’t believe Bob was a brother, he was enrolled in a dry suit course in progress that Linnea joined as a AOW student, which is why she missed the dry suit orientation for the class.

Right--got confused.

 

[boulderjohn]

n all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions.

Maybe it's time to stop coddling new scuba divers. Make it clear that scuba can kill you if you don't develop and use the required skills. Point people in the direction of continuous learning and practice.....and it doesn't need to be all formal courses. There is a wealth of knowledge right here on Scubaboard.

I think you identify a key problem in those two paragraphs. In your examples, you say, "In all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions." In contrast, in by far most cases of scuba, the diver is dependent upon a dive operation, a dive operation that will take the diver out and then have to perform a risky rescue or a risky body recovery if the diver is not good enough for the selected dive. They will want some idea that the diver has the necessary skills for the intended dive.

 

[KevinNM]

We do often get into discussions about the quality of scuba training and how that should/could be improved or how a few instructors provide a much higher quality of training with increased expectations of their students. My few years of experience with scuba instructors/divemasters and organizations would tend to confirm all of this.....however scuba is the only activity I have participated in where death is a distinct possibility and where a certification is required to participate.

Canyoneering kills a much higher percentage of people annually than scuba. A course, or at least some time with a guide is recommended, but not required.

Winter hiking, skiing or boarding in the mountains kills more people in avalanches each year in North America than scuba diving does worldwide. Again, an avalanche course is recommended but not required.

Backcountry travel in my area of the world results in lost people on a fairly regular basis...some are injured and a couple each year die or are never found. Courses in backcountry travel and first aid are recommended but not required.

In all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions.

Maybe it's time to stop coddling new scuba divers. Make it clear that scuba can kill you if you don't develop and use the required skills. Point people in the direction of continuous learning and practice.....and it doesn't need to be all formal courses. There is a wealth of knowledge right here on Scubaboard.

Most certification courses only get people a few basic skills, a full tank of air and the right to kill themselves if they don't take responsibility for their own safety.

There are a lot of dangerous hobbies. Some require certification (skydiving) but those are typically because you need a professional involved (the skydiving center aircraft) to perform it. Ice climbing doesn’t require a cert.

But a student should never get killed in a class to learn how to do this. The only exception is the student lying or not knowing about some medical condition. Otherwise the instructor needs to both screen the student for competency to participate and have a safety framework in place to allow them to rescue a student who makes a mistake.

So in parachuting, on the first jump, you have multiple instructors around the student plus an AAD that will probably save their life if everything goes wrong and the student is plunging to the ground at 100mph at 2000 feet.

 

[lermontov]

I think you identify a key problem in those two paragraphs. In your examples, you say, "In all three of these activities you are on your own....your ability to return home depends on your own skills and knowledge and ability to make good decisions." In contrast, in by far most cases of scuba, the diver is dependent upon a dive operation, a dive operation that will take the diver out and then have to perform a risky rescue or a risky body recovery if the diver is not good enough for the selected dive. They will want some idea that the diver has the necessary skills for the intended dive.

I guess a big difference is that many other sports as mentioned the danger is not consistently present and the time lag to sort problems or take evasive action has a longer lead time, diving underwater the danger is constantly on your shoulder and the response time is less than 2 minutes. Irregardless a student having little knowledge or experience to calibrate the level of any imminent danger can hardly expected to do is if they themselves are by definition students.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

How many people had actual OW instructors who told them scuba can kill? I did. It was mentioned more than once.

One of the worst things I was told in my IDC was “don’t scare the students.” For reg recovery, “tell them that they have to clear after taking a picture.”

Forget that, if they find themselves on a cattle boat they will likely get kicked in the face.

I don’t look at scaring anyone but I do not sugarcoat reality.

 

[boulderjohn]

I guess a big difference is that many other sports as mentioned the danger is not consistently present and the time lag to sort problems or take evasive action has a longer lead time, diving underwater the danger is constantly on your shoulder and the response time is less than 2 minutes. Irregardless a student having little knowledge or experience to calibrate the level of any imminent danger can hardly expected to do is if they themselves are by definition students.

I live in Colorado, where most of the activities mentioned are very popular and where we have deaths every year. An avalanche can take out a back country skier or snowmobiler in seconds, so they have to be very alert to danger signs. Rock climbers can fall at any second on a climb if they have not secured themselves properly, and many intentionally shun that security (see the movie Free Solo). Ever see videos of people whizzing through mountain canyons in winged suits? I once drove past a popular landing site for hang gliders. I bet 70% of the people there were wearing casts on some part of their bodies.