Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Bob DBF]

However- it is also not possible to argue that both certifications are unnecessary while at the same time criticizing standards which are certainly not necessary- and then claim logical consistency. In teaching anything deemed "unnecessary" means more or less that

Of course it is, one can choose to learn a skill without involving an instructor or certification, however if one wants a recognized certification by an agency, there should be a knowledgeable instructor following a course of training that will give the necessary skills to the student, while keeping the student safe. In the first case the student is on his own and knows it, while in the second case the student is dependant on the instructor, the amount of dependence hinges on how well the student was trained previously.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Did Gull not have a previous significant incident? I seem to recall reading that it did. If so, why should one not expect Gull to have had extra QA scrutiny from an agency which touts its QA program ... perhaps nipping this incident in the bud?

Given that they demonstrated bad judgement in renting equipment to an uncertified diver, I would say yes. Kind of like the other famous PADI fatality in Bear Lake.

Edit: that uncertified diver did die unfortunately. I believe there was a memo internally at PADI that they should monitor Gull Dive Center but not sure of the timing.

 

[Omisson]

Did Gull not have a previous significant incident? I seem to recall reading that it did. If so, why should one not expect Gull to have had extra QA scrutiny from an agency which touts its QA program ... perhaps nipping this incident in the bud?

No incident was disclosed to PADI until AFTER this incident happened… but hey why let the facts ruin a good theory…..

 

[Omisson]

Given that they demonstrated bad judgement in renting equipment to an uncertified diver, I would say yes. Kind of like the other famous PADI fatality in Bear Lake.

Edit: that uncertified diver did die unfortunately. I believe there was a memo internally at PADI that they should monitor Gull Dive Center but not sure of the timing.

Nice to repeat the water cooler gossip- but unfortunately not factual. There was no disclosure of the prior incident until after the one at issue here.

and again- it wasn’t PADI using tanks out of hydro- it was a local dive shop and that was discovered after the incident at Bear Lake- which you know From the other thread….

so I guess you just like peddling half truths to look like your contributions merit consideration…

 

[Wookie]

There was no disclosure of the prior incident until after the one at issue here.

You are assuming that the QA process didn't work, and that PADI doesn't know what goes on out in the real world.

Yes, we know that PADI mentions in an internal memo that Gull was involved in an incident the year previous,

but IIRC, Gull was dropped as a PADI facility following that incident (renting gear to an uncertified individual). I may not remember correctly, my memory is flawed for sure, but I'm pretty sure I remember that Gull was dropped (and properly so) but they still continued to display the PADI marketing material, and teach PADI classes.

Again, I have no problem with a dive shop renting gear to anyone who walks in the door, but PADI does, or seems to. I might think that a quick spot check by the regional rep would be in order when he's driving through and a cease and desist would keep PADI from being flogged on an obscure internet chat board.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Nice to repeat the water cooler gossip- but unfortunately not factual. There was no disclosure of the prior incident until after the one at issue here.

and again- it wasn’t PADI using tanks out of hydro- it was a local dive shop and that was discovered after the incident at Bear Lake- which you know From the other thread….

so I guess you just like peddling half truths to look like your contributions merit consideration…

Dan,

Given your time in a federal prison (though you did benefit from an early release due to COVID), I and many others question the correctness of your interpretation of the law and also your judgement.

Say what you want, but it is hard to take you seriously. Maybe you have stated things correctly (I think some things you have said are accurate, but probably not everything).

There are those of us here focused on how the system can be improved. We understand that people are fallible, that people make errors in judgment.

In many cases, people exercise such poor judgement that no changes in standards could have changed the outcome.

However PADI has amended their standards in ways that, if followed, Ms. Mills might very well be alive. Unfortunately, we cannot go back in time to determine this.

I get the feeling that in your view PADI standards are perfect, and that is your right to hold that position. But you cannot shout down anyone who says otherwise.

If your goal is to have the last word, well there I think you are often successful as people put you on their ignore list and stop engaging.

I do recommend you take Human Factors in diving. Feel free to argue these topics with Gareth. But the reality is systems are flawed just like people.

It isn't possible to stop all diving fatalities. But non medical emergency fatalities/injuries can be reduced and that is where we should focus our efforts.

More changes are needed. At least some changes were made. Hopefully as agencies like RAID continue to take market share from other agencies, agencies in general are forced to raise the bar in the quality of their training and dive training becomes safer as a result. I'd prefer that over reacting to litigation.

 

[tursiops]

I used to work with some folks that were described as, "Not always right, but never in doubt."
This thread brings back memories of those folks.

 

[PirateFoxy]

Clearly YOU don’t read these threads- because if you did you’d see the dozens of posts I’ve made over the last three years on this issue- and all the data, standards, and legal analysis I’ve posted.

and I noticed of course your non-responses to the actual issues.

I am not interested in your obsession with PADI always being right. You insisting that I should be will not make me interested in it. My primary interest in the case at this point is the ISB 'investigation'. That you keep trying to shift the topic makes me wonder if you think PADI *would* have come out poorly if the ISB had done their job properly. What is it that you think PADI did that you're trying to distract from?

 

[Subfiend]

No incident was disclosed to PADI until AFTER this incident happened… but hey why let the facts ruin a good theory…..

Incorrect. The prior death resulted in a lawsuit filed in July 2020. PADI was aware of this suit and its carrier assigned counsel to defend that lawsuit -- the same counsel that took possession of the dive computer later in November.

 

[rsingler]

So here's the problem...
Do we create a system with huge oversight, perhaps like medicine, with continuing education requirements, lots of oversight and great expense (not that it actually eliminates bad medicine)? Or do we count on instructors to do the right thing with some oversight, recognizing that the bell curve will inevitably mean more Debbie Snow's and perhaps needless injury and death?

The Conception disaster proves that we can always count on politicians to do the wrong thing, in that case now creating an insurance crisis that will benefit only trial lawyers instead of insisting that we enforce the regulations that already existed requiring a roving watch.

What do we do with scuba?

I think it's time for the best instructors to tell the truth. That the standards are biased in favor of the agencies selling curriculum, instead of the student. That scuba instruction needs to cost more and take longer. That insurance needs to protect the instructors as well as the students, and that agencies need to get paid for their excellent curriculum, but no more than that.

If you want to claim QA, then DO it!
Don't bamboozle the unsuspecting customer, in whose ranks I include Linnea Mills, no matter what responsibility she might also have had as a "certified diver."